Rehumanising and engaging with the police - is it possible?

Wolveryeti · Apr 10, 2009

Amidst the fallout from aggressive policing during the G20 and in other occasions, I sometimes wonder if this rancour is deliberately engineered as a red herring. The target of demonstrations should be the people in power, yet often enough, the police end up taking a lot of the heat, and the momentum is lost.

It seems to me from their reluctance to enforce minor violations such as cannabis use, that the police are quite sensitive to how damaging their reputation can make their job harder. Would it be such a stupid idea to have a demo focused around addressing the officers sent to police it? Would it be futile for the groups organising these demonstrations to try and gain the police's ear by meeting with senior constables to discuss their grievances?

It seems to me there is something to gain on both sides. From the police side there is the prospect of a more pleasant day to day job through a friendlier attitude from the general public. The demonstrators might get a force that acts with more sensitivity, because their adversaries now have a face, and the media/government demonisation will not capture their imagination to the same extent.

FridgeMagnet · Apr 10, 2009

a demo focused around addressing the officers sent to police it

In what way?

Kid_Eternity · Apr 10, 2009

This will go well.

*pulls up deckchair, puts popcorn in the microwave*

FridgeMagnet · Apr 10, 2009

Oh, and

Would it be futile for the groups organising these demonstrations to try and gain the police's ear by meeting with senior constables to discuss their grievances

It has proved futile in the past, certainly. Senior constables don't care. It's not their job to care.

Wolveryeti · Apr 10, 2009

FridgeMagnet said:
In what way?

Trying to engage individual officers in conversation, instead of generally ignoring them while they herd everyone from point A to B. To be fair, most police look dead nervous whenever someone tries to engage them in conversation, but you never know, it might work.

Wilf · Apr 10, 2009

Wolveryeti said:
Trying to engage individual officers in conversation, instead of generally ignoring them while they herd everyone from point A to B. To be fair, most police look dead nervous whenever someone tries to engage them in conversation, but you never know, it might work.

The riot police are trained NOT to talk to their victims.

Herbert Read · Apr 10, 2009

Perhaps the WI could put on a nice spread of tea and scones?

Herbert Read · Apr 10, 2009

Wolveryeti said:
Trying to engage individual officers in conversation, instead of generally ignoring them while they herd everyone from point A to B.

Have you thought this though? Have you been to a football match, festival, protest or demo? Do you honestly think they're going to take so much as ten seconds out to engage in conversation? Wally.

Wolveryeti · Apr 10, 2009

Herbert Read said:
Have you thought this though? Have you been to a football match, festival, protest or demo? Do you honestly think they're going to take so much as ten seconds out to engage in conversation? Wally.

Not with an uncharismatic tool like yourself, certainly.

FridgeMagnet · Apr 10, 2009

Wolveryeti said:
Trying to engage individual officers in conversation, instead of generally ignoring them while they herd everyone from point A to B. To be fair, most police look dead nervous whenever someone tries to engage them in conversation, but you never know, it might work.

People do this all the time, every demo. Coppers are quite happy to chat back and be friendly, until the point where they're actually stopping you do stuff or hitting you, at which point they either ignore you or insult you.

Wilf · Apr 10, 2009

Herbert Read said:
Perhaps the WI could put on a nice spread of tea and scones?

[snigger]

... but, to the OP: it depends on what kind of protests you are involved in. If its some kind of liberal, consensual thing, there might be some mileage in what you say - though the experience of the Climate Campers last week suggests otherwise. If its anything genuinely anti-capitalist - or even against a particular company - then the structural constraints take over. The pigs are there to do a job and it doesn't involve building bridges.

ymu · Apr 10, 2009

The problem with the police is that they serve the state, not the "general public". People generally support criminals being brought to justice, but what they see is their kids getting hassled in the street whilst noone turns up to investigate a burglary. They see a complaints procedure which habitually whitewashes police whilst they get ticketed for the most trivial of offences.

Appealing to their better nature isn't going to work, whatever the feelings of individual coppers. The institution is rotten to the core. Change will only come when those people who don't come into much contact with the police stop being so complacent and disbelieving about the experiences of those who do.

It won't change until it's politically impossible for it not to change - and that won't happen until we're living in a very different society to the one we have now. One where no newspaper would dream of trying to smear Ian Tomlinson because it would be universally offensive to suggest that his personal life or the state of his health is relevant when discussing an unprovoked criminal assault. One where no judge could expect to keep his job after preventing an inquest jury from delivering a verdict of unlawful killing.

Wilf · Apr 10, 2009

Wolveryeti said:
Not with an uncharismatic tool like yourself, certainly.

Have you ever thought of meeting with senior Herbert Reads to discuss your grievances?

Herbert Read · Apr 10, 2009

4thwrite said:
Have you ever thought of meeting with senior Herbert Reads to discuss your grievances?

I was told Gaia is unimpressed by my pessimism and then he forced me to take a mooncup home for my wife

DotCommunist · Apr 10, 2009

IME it's only City cops that are proper arseholes. Townie and coontree plod really aren't that bad.

The london met though, jesus, those are a class apart.

Wilf · Apr 10, 2009

Herbert Read said:
I was told Gaia is unimpressed by my pessimism and then he forced me to take a mooncup home for my wife

Truly, the earth screams

Dillinger4 · Apr 10, 2009

acab.

paulhackett · Apr 10, 2009

DotCommunist said:
IME it's only City cops that are proper arseholes. Townie and coontree plod really aren't that bad.

The london met though, jesus, those are a class apart.

Sorry, but that's wrong - Battle of the Beanfield springs to mind for starters..

As for riot police, well they're expecting.. a riot.

DotCommunist · Apr 10, 2009

paulhackett66 said:
Sorry, but that's wrong. As for riot police, well they're expecting.. a riot.

IME

of both City and Non City plod

Riot police are just wankers in armour tbf

paulhackett · Apr 10, 2009

DotCommunist said:
IME

of both City and Non City plod

Riot police are just wankers in armour tbf

Twas why I started with 'sorry' - not a slight at you, and I edited as you tapped!

OneStrike · Apr 10, 2009

Unfortunately i have on countless times tried to have polite converasations with crowd control police. Sometimes they are quite amiable, suprisingly last Wednesday 'most' that i spoke to were more polite than normal. The second something happens they will almost universally steam over you though, your in their way so you are the enemy. At best some, if not most of the recruits sign up with the right intentions, however the institutional bias is towards supporting the state. It doesn't matter if you are a demonstrator, protestor, football fan or innocent bystander, you are the enemy. If i am as evil a person as they assumed, then they are from deep below hell.

Barking_Mad · Apr 10, 2009

Wolveryeti said:
Trying to engage individual officers in conversation, instead of generally ignoring them while they herd everyone from point A to B. To be fair, most police look dead nervous whenever someone tries to engage them in conversation, but you never know, it might work.

Of course there is, the issue is saying the right things to the right officer. Like all 'propaganda' the key is getting the message right. Some unsurprisingly agree with protesters, others want a ruck, others are clueless and are just doing as they are told.

Barking_Mad · Apr 10, 2009

The thing protesters have on their side is that at any entirely peaceful demo at the moment the police are going to be on the backfoot in their use of batons, pushing and all other associated violent tactics. Each officer will know they are being watched, each officer will know that they might be in the process of being filmed - a power which protesters would do well to peacefully utilize.

I mean, they dont really want more footage of innocent, non-violent protesters being pushed and knocked over given what's gone on, do they?

LOL who knows, maybe that final scene from V for Vendetta isn't so far away

*tongue firmly in cheek*

maomao · Apr 10, 2009

My mum's spent the last two years tracking down a lost branch of the family and told me yesterday that I am apparently related to a London riot police.

Barking_Mad · Apr 10, 2009

maomao said:
My mum's spent the last two years tracking down a lost branch of the family and told me yesterday that I am apparently related to a London riot police.

My heartfelt condolences.

ViolentPanda · Apr 10, 2009

Wolveryeti said:
Amidst the fallout from aggressive policing during the G20 and in other occasions, I sometimes wonder if this rancour is deliberately engineered as a red herring. The target of demonstrations should be the people in power, yet often enough, the police end up taking a lot of the heat, and the momentum is lost.

It seems to me from their reluctance to enforce minor violations such as cannabis use, that the police are quite sensitive to how damaging their reputation can make their job harder. Would it be such a stupid idea to have a demo focused around addressing the officers sent to police it? Would it be futile for the groups organising these demonstrations to try and gain the police's ear by meeting with senior constables to discuss their grievances?

It seems to me there is something to gain on both sides. From the police side there is the prospect of a more pleasant day to day job through a friendlier attitude from the general public. The demonstrators might get a force that acts with more sensitivity, because their adversaries now have a face, and the media/government demonisation will not capture their imagination to the same extent.

All that's required of the police is that they act with humanity and in accordance with law rather than in accordance to "mission objectives" or political requirements.

durruti02 · Apr 10, 2009

Wolveryeti said:
Trying to engage individual officers in conversation, instead of generally ignoring them while they herd everyone from point A to B. To be fair, most police look dead nervous whenever someone tries to engage them in conversation, but you never know, it might work.

i do try .. but it is not possible to communicate .. they are trained not to..

why do i talk to them? to try to understand authoritarianism/fascism ..

qoutes that day included after i asked one wpc wtf are people supposed to do when they are thrown out of jobs etc etc she replied

" People should do what they are told to do "

yes we should NOT dehumanise anyone BNP/Met .. BUT we also need to understand who they are and who they serve .. they sum of fascism and the authoritarianism

btw you are right we should not let them take the blame for the actions of capital/the state

Brother Mouzone · Apr 11, 2009

Wolveryeti said:
Amidst the fallout from aggressive policing during the G20 and in other occasions, I sometimes wonder if this rancour is deliberately engineered as a red herring. The target of demonstrations should be the people in power, yet often enough, the police end up taking a lot of the heat, and the momentum is lost.

It seems to me from their reluctance to enforce minor violations such as cannabis use, that the police are quite sensitive to how damaging their reputation can make their job harder. Would it be such a stupid idea to have a demo focused around addressing the officers sent to police it? Would it be futile for the groups organising these demonstrations to try and gain the police's ear by meeting with senior constables to discuss their grievances?

It seems to me there is something to gain on both sides. From the police side there is the prospect of a more pleasant day to day job through a friendlier attitude from the general public. The demonstrators might get a force that acts with more sensitivity, because their adversaries now have a face, and the media/government demonisation will not capture their imagination to the same extent.

How can you engage with the police on a human level when they are freely to allowed to (and have done on occasions to numerous to mention, including the G20 event) use violence and intimidation against Peaceful protesters?

From the reports it would appear that this is precisely what the Climate Camp group did and they were met with shields and batons.

Why? Mainly because they're asking a basic question regarding why we should be destroying our world for the interests of a few concentrations of power in the Energy industry.

This isn't even being discussed in the media, yet we all know that it's true instead here are some pictures of the RBS being smashed up, that's why we beat the shit out of protesters it's for your own protection, public order maintained etc.

There's enormous historical precedent for this, look at the Miners Strike and Stop the War Bush Demonstrations to name two off the top of my head.

Do you really think that the Police want to engage with protesters? The indoctrination of the force and group psychology is something to behold, read any of the numerous Police internet message boards and the message is clear; Contempt for the public and the protesters. The Thug who push IT? Why he was simply doing his job.

plod forum user Maverick22 said:
I have no time for these G20 demonstrators, they can spray them all with petrol as far as I am concerned, and throw in a match, most are people just out for a fight with the police.

Source

plod forum user Wee Man said:
I think people need to start doing as they're told...

if a Police officer tells you to move then just bloody move!!! Don't argue the toss - they're too busy to get involved in a debate. Don't start screaming about your "rights" because we've got a right to go home safely and whilst we're dealing with you our eye is off the ball and we're more likely to get injured. If you're that bothered take their number and complain the next morning. Don't push back, cos that's just rude and is likely to mean you'll end up in bother yourself. Just. Go. Home!!!

I'm not really sure how people can complain when, the officers are wearing balaclava's and have their numbers covered.

Source

plod forum user Judge Dreddy said:
Peacefully demonstrate and express legitimate views - don't make me laugh.

My thoughts are with the copper being investigated and I say to him - you are supported by many who do not voice their opinions like I do. Keep a clear head and remember, it could have been any cop finding himself in that situation. My support is to you, your family and colleagues.

Source

plod forum user Morek54 said:
I personally refuse to condemn the actions of the Officer in this clip.

Source

I think the question you should be asking is whether the Police are able to interact with the public on a humane level? The answer seems to be a abundantly clear; No.

frogwoman · Apr 11, 2009

ymu said:
The problem with the police is that they serve the state, not the "general public". People generally support criminals being brought to justice, but what they see is their kids getting hassled in the street whilst noone turns up to investigate a burglary. They see a complaints procedure which habitually whitewashes police whilst they get ticketed for the most trivial of offences.

Appealing to their better nature isn't going to work, whatever the feelings of individual coppers. The institution is rotten to the core. Change will only come when those people who don't come into much contact with the police stop being so complacent and disbelieving about the experiences of those who do.

It won't change until it's politically impossible for it not to change - and that won't happen until we're living in a very different society to the one we have now. One where no newspaper would dream of trying to smear Ian Tomlinson because it would be universally offensive to suggest that his personal life or the state of his health is relevant when discussing an unprovoked criminal assault. One where no judge could expect to keep his job after preventing an inquest jury from delivering a verdict of unlawful killing.

^^^^^^^^^^ this

frogwoman · Apr 11, 2009

DotCommunist said:
IME it's only City cops that are proper arseholes. Townie and coontree plod really aren't that bad.

The london met though, jesus, those are a class apart.

Rehumanising and engaging with the police - is it possible?

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