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Conservative/Green/LibDem coalition in Lambeth?

I seem to remember that the Greens in Leeds getting loads of stick on the politics forum for this sort of arrangement, yet a quick glance at the numbers (a *very* poor substitute indeed for local political knowledge) would seem to suggest just such a set up could be coming to Urban's back yard next year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambeth_Council_election,_2006

Reasoning being

1) the Conservatives can gain seats in Clapham Town and maybe Clapham Common, but seem to stand little chance of making gains elsewhere

2) the Greens could easily score a Herne Hill hatrick, and stand an outside chance in Brixton Hill

3) If the Liberals regain some ground on Labour, Lambeth will become a 'hung' council.

Thoughts? Comments? :confused: Insults? :D
 
I disagree - I dont think there will be any change in control at the next local elections especially if the local elections are held on the same day as the general election. If anything (especially if its GE the same day) Labour may gain seats overall on Lambeth.

Factors that lead me to this conclusion:

1) The Liberal Democrats never actually 'win' Lambeth - The Lib Dems or any other party only gain power if they enter into a coalition with another party, only Labour has the ability to win a majority on Lambeth. Look at the results for 2002 when the Lib Dems took control: Lib Dems and Labour both gained 28 seats and it was only the Lib Dems' ability to do a deal with the Conservatives (7 seats) that gave them control. In absolute terms Labour always wins the majority of the votes in the borough - it is only the distribution of the seats which means that any other party has any chance of power.

2) Turnout is different for general and local elections - around 25% of people turn out to vote for local borough council elections and so parties work hard to ensure that it is their supporters that actually vote and it is possible to win seats even though general support would not warrant it.

In general elections turnout is closer to 50% which whilst still low is double local election levels - as a result far more Labour voters come out which assuming they vote the same way in local and general elections will mean a much bigger Labour vote.

For example if you look at the Vauxhall parliamentary seat at the last election Labour won a majority of votes in all the council wards - if this was applied to local elections labour would win all the council seats located in the constituency and would therefore gain 7 councillors (3 in Bishops ward, 3 in Oval ward, 1 lost in byelection in Vassall)

3) Increased Conservative support will benefit Labour - only in Clapham is Labour under threat directly from the Tories and so any increased support for the Conservatives will actually dilute the anti-Labour vote allowing Labour to still win as people who vote Labour in Lambeth at least are unlikley to change.

4) (In Vauxhall at least) People have a lot of respect for their MP - in Vauxhall and the other Lambeth constituencies people have lots of problems in housing and immigration etc which the MP has the powers to sort out. As a result people have a lot of respect and affection for Hoey and so if she throws herself into the local election campaign will result in these people voting Labour. Especially if the GE is the same day as the local elections the 'Kate Hoey vote' will come out for Labour.

5) Greens are unlikely to win anywhere but Herne Hill - as the last election figures show the Green are unlikely to win any seats on Lambeth outside of Herne Hill. As a result they will be concentrating on this seat. The increases in Green vote will also dilute the non-Labour vote.

6) Labour and the Conservatives do not like the Lib Dems - according to a friend who knows about these things in Lambeth provisional talks are being held to woo the Conservatives so that they are more likely to form a coalition with Labour after the next council elections if there is no majority control.

7) Labour has frozen council tax - this will bring benefits for the people most likely to turn out and vote and so they are likely to retain support among this group. This is speculation on my part but I think people who are not in social housing generally have had no complaint with the administration over the last four years and will be happy that their council tax is relatively low for London and will not increase in 2009 or 2010 (and if they are really concerned about such things they will have moved to Wandsworth)

8) Labour can implement rent reductions - my reading of developments nationally is that the Labour government is concerned about large rent rises and so is offering all local authorities extra funding so that they dont have to charge excessive increases.

Lambeth obviously is in discussions with central government about getting the funding and is probably most likely to get it given the high numbers of people (50-60% of the population) who live in social housing of one sort or another in Lambeth. This will cushion the increased cost for tenants which will mean they are less likely to vote against Labour.

9) Lib Dems will be defending their councils - the Lib Dems are likely to concentrate their resources on defending councils such as Southwark, Camden and Islington where they are in danger of losing and so will not have the staff-power and resources to pump into places like Lambeth which they may have written off. If the council elections are the same day as the general election they will also be concentrating resources on defending parliamentary seats from the Conservatives and Labour as well.

So all in all it looks like four more years of Labour 2010-2014
 
Interestingly the last time that Labour (or any party) held control for two consecutive election periods was 1986-1994 so I personally think that it will benefit the borough to have a bit of continuity as inevitably when a new council takes over they spend the first few months getting up to speed and in many caes undoing decisions previously made just to spite the prevous administration
 
Interesting and well argued alternative analysis, SE5.

I agree that if the 2010 elections co-incide with a general election, it will change the picture somewhat.

The Liberal Democrats never actually 'win' Lambeth - The Lib Dems or any other party only gain power if they enter into a coalition with another party,

Yes, the results from previous years seem to back this up. I guess the point I am making is that if Labour *did* lose overall control, a 3 way coalition might be the only alternative possible (barring some sort of Lib/Lab pact)
 
The Leeds coalition was a very specific result of the political situation there, the personalities involved, the history of the Green councillors and so on.

If any kind of coalition with the Tories happens in Lambeth I'll eat my hat. Or rather, I'll buy a hat so that I can eat it. :)

Matt
 
Interestingly the last time that Labour (or any party) held control for two consecutive election periods was 1986-1994 so I personally think that it will benefit the borough to have a bit of continuity as inevitably when a new council takes over they spend the first few months getting up to speed and in many caes undoing decisions previously made just to spite the prevous administration


That's being totaly political under the guise of being neutral or apolitical. Cards on the table, s.
 
The Leeds coalition was a very specific result of the political situation there, the personalities involved, the history of the Green councillors and so on.

If any kind of coalition with the Tories happens in Lambeth I'll eat my hat. Or rather, I'll buy a hat so that I can eat it. :)

Matt

Oh please matt, it happened along a fault line that people have said existed for donkeys years - it exists in many other towns. It cannot be ignored away as specific to leeds.
 
butchers,

Didn't say it could be - but it is a fact that the Green councillors there are ex-Labour, that they have specific personal histories, and so forth.

As you know, I've been amongst the most outspoken people arguing for honest and open discussion of these issues in the Green Party. I continue to be so.

Matt
 
butchers,

Didn't say it could be - but it is a fact that the Green councillors there are ex-Labour, that they have specific personal histories, and so forth.

As you know, I've been amongst the most outspoken people arguing for honest and open discussion of these issues in the Green Party. I continue to be so.

Matt

I'm not having a personal pop matt no need to bring your own record in.

The fact is that this happened - if it happened because you'll let labour carpetbaggers in then it's a problem. Has it been dealt with? How? What structures are now in place to stop this sort of thing happening again?
 
It hasn't been dealt with, and while there are some structures in place that could be used to deal with it, the political will to use them doesnt' (in my opinion) currently exist.

Changing that is the role of ordinary party members - which, luckily, in a democratic party, it is entirely possible to do. Progress is being made in continuing to shift our policy positions (including our actual local actions on the ground, as well as theoretical paper policies) to the left, and I'm actually significantly more hopefully about the Party than I have been for a number of years.

As you'll see when I finally produce this long-awaited rambling pamphlet of mine, it's not something I'm complacent about though!

Matt

P.S. Worth saying that there is no longer a Con/Green administration in Leeds. I'd be the first to admit that that is not because of any principled action though, but just because it became clear to the Greens that they had got all the concessions they were going to get.
 
That's being totaly political under the guise of being neutral or apolitical. Cards on the table, s.

Sorry if it comes across that way - what I was trying to convey was that a bit of continuity would be good for the borough.

Inevitably a change of power such as in 2006 (or in 2002/ 1998/1994 before then) leads to an interim period where not much happens as the new councillors gain the skills to chair the committees, instruct officers and develop a new way of doing things etc etc.

Its very easy when out of power to criticise the current council but once the new party get into power and is faced with the same issues it can be hard to develop a new outlook thats better. And often the new incoming administration does things in the first year just to destroy what the previous council was emphasising, not because they are the best things to do for the borough - its basic politics I suppose.

And yes I declare an interest - I am a Labour supporter but I think that (perhaps naively) all councillors in Lambeth have the best interests of the borough at heart and ultimately whichever party is in power they would pursue policies that are best for the borough.
 
It hasn't been dealt with, and while there are some structures in place that could be used to deal with it, the political will to use them doesnt' (in my opinion) currently exist.

Changing that is the role of ordinary party members - which, luckily, in a democratic party, it is entirely possible to do. Progress is being made in continuing to shift our policy positions (including our actual local actions on the ground, as well as theoretical paper policies) to the left, and I'm actually significantly more hopefully about the Party than I have been for a number of years.

As you'll see when I finally produce this long-awaited rambling pamphlet of mine, it's not something I'm complacent about though!

Matt

P.S. Worth saying that there is no longer a Con/Green administration in Leeds. I'd be the first to admit that that is not because of any principled action though, but just because it became clear to the Greens that they had got all the concessions they were going to get.

Fair dos. Roll on the pamph!
 
As se5 says, the likelihood of a General Election on the same day as the local election in 2010 - for the first time in Lambeth I think (or at least since the end of the metropolitan boroughs) - should make things interesting.

Looking at general trends I would say that there are two certain changes - 2 Green gains in Herne Hill (from Labour) and at least 2 Conservative gains in Clapham Common (from Lib Dems) with the third dependant on the Labour councillors' decision to restand. That would leave Labour on 35 councillors and needing to lose at least 4 more before the Council went to No Overall Control, which isn't outside the realms of possibility.

At the moment my hunch is that Labour will hold on with a reduced majority, but acting as devil's advocate to se5's points...

1. Incumbent Labour have had an astounding ability to 'lose' Lambeth in recent years and because they're seen as the natural party of power at the Town Hall it's more difficult for opposition parties to prop them up when they lose control. This is true if you look at Town Halls of any colour when the incumbent no longer has a majority. It happened in 2002 and would be difficult to see that change if the borough went NOC next time.

While Labour wins the largest share of the vote (35.6%), it doesn't have an outright majority. If you consider the share of seats from a proportional representation perspective, Labour benefits disproportionately at the expense of Greens (in particular - they had a 15% vote share but one councillor) and Conservatives (with 17% for less than 10% of councillors).

I thought the most interesting thing about the 2006 result was that Labour's vote went down 1% compared to 2002, but they gained 11 seats. This was achieved by focusing on key marginals (i.e. Princes, Knights Hill and Stockwell) rather than piling up votes in safe wards (i.e. Tulse Hill and Ferndale), as page 45 in this report demonstrates.

2) The higher turnout for a General Election should benefit Labour at a local level. However, previous Lambeth local election results and the Mayoral results earlier this year show that many voters are savvy enough to split their votes between ballots to achieve a specific outcome. They also cast votes in some ballots and not others. Whether that happens in 2010 will depend on the presence of 'local' issues that prompt voters to vote for different parties.

3) Can't argue that increased Conservative support would not result in a net benefit to Labour at the expense of Lib Dems. That happened to a certain extent in 2006.

4) The existing MPs - and Chuka in Streatham - will undoubtedly campaign on their local credentials more than any time since 1997. I can't imagine there will be many pictures of Gordon Brown on election leaflets. Likewise, their opponents will do exactly the opposite and try to connect them with the unpopularity of the Government. Harder in the case of Chuka Umunna and Kate Hoey, but quite easy in the case of Tessa Jowell.

But would people who vote for Kate Hoey necessarily vote for Labour councillors? She couldn't be described as the administration's most vocal supporter and arguably benefits from outspoken comments about the Council.

5) Agree the Greens are unlikely to make gains outside of Herne Hill, but not convinced their vote necessarily splits the anti-Labour vote.

7) Labour has frozen council tax, but they have also increased charges on a wide range of services. There has been a big rise in care charges for the elderly, who are more inclined to vote. The cumulative effect of each issue won't necessarily cancel out any 'feel good' factor from the council tax freeze, but will reduce it.

8) Labour has already sent out rent bills with this year's increase - and handled it badly IMHO. If the Government provides extra funding I'm not convinced the Council would gain from any subsequent goodwill.

9) Labour benefited from resources in 2006 that won't be available to them in 2010 when a General Election will require resources to be spread out across the Council.

The key to Labour retaining control of the Council rests on learning the lessons of 2006 and focusing on holding on to those key wards rather than repeating the mistakes of 2002 when they tried to win 40+ seats.
 
I seem to remember that the Greens in Leeds getting loads of stick on the politics forum for this sort of arrangement, yet a quick glance at the numbers (a *very* poor substitute indeed for local political knowledge) would seem to suggest just such a set up could be coming to Urban's back yard next year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambeth_Council_election,_2006

Reasoning being

1) the Conservatives can gain seats in Clapham Town and maybe Clapham Common, but seem to stand little chance of making gains elsewhere

2) the Greens could easily score a Herne Hill hatrick, and stand an outside chance in Brixton Hill

3) If the Liberals regain some ground on Labour, Lambeth will become a 'hung' council.

Thoughts? Comments? :confused: Insults? :D

If there's a slightest whiff of the Greens doing any deal with the foul Lib Dems or the vile Tories in Lambeth, then my vote goes directly to Labour. My sense is that I wouldn't be alone in doing this, so I doubt you'll get the rainbow coalition.
 
If there's a slightest whiff of the Greens doing any deal with the foul Lib Dems or the vile Tories in Lambeth, then my vote goes directly to Labour. My sense is that I wouldn't be alone in doing this, so I doubt you'll get the rainbow coalition.

More likely the Conservatives will do a deal with Labour - Labour approached them a number of times after the 2002 elections.
 
:hmm:
More likely the Conservatives will do a deal with Labour - Labour approached them a number of times after the 2002 elections.

Oh Really?
Well thanks for telling me that, unbiased Lib-Dem councillor Bob.:hmm:

If there are any anti-Tory votes floating about on this board, it's best to let them know that Labour "approached" the Tories 7 years ago and hopefully they'll forget that the Lib Dems actually were in coalition with them just 3 years ago.

Clllleeevvvvverrr.

[Mind watches Councillor Bob's desperate attempt to mop up anti-tory votes with derision and remembers why she never votes Lib Dem]
 
Is this massive coalition (if it happens) going to bill themselves as the 'Anything But Labour' party? That would probably be a vote-winner.
 
:hmm:

Oh Really?
Well thanks for telling me that, unbiased Lib-Dem councillor Bob.:hmm:

If there are any anti-Tory votes floating about on this board, it's best to let them know that Labour "approached" the Tories 7 years ago and hopefully they'll forget that the Lib Dems actually were in coalition with them just 3 years ago.

Clllleeevvvvverrr.

[Mind watches Councillor Bob's desperate attempt to mop up anti-tory votes with derision and remembers why she never votes Lib Dem]

My point is that Labour and the Lib Dems are by far the largest parties and have been for 20 years round here. So the most likely outcome of the next council elections is that there will be some sort of deal between one of them and either the Greens or Tories.

I am a Lib Dem but I'm not a councillor - as many people on these boards who know me in person know.

What about you Mind? Labour councillor? Activist? :hmm::D
 
My point is that Labour and the Lib Dems are by far the largest parties and have been for 20 years round here. So the most likely outcome of the next council elections is that there will be some sort of deal between one of them and either the Greens or Tories.

What a load of HORSESHIT.
All you said was "More likely the Conservatives will do a deal with Labour", we can still read the comment you know.

I am a Lib Dem but I'm not a councillor - as many people on these boards who know me in person know.
What about you Mind? Labour councillor? Activist? :hmm::D

Neither. Just someone who gives a damn about my local area and detests ALL lying weasel politicians. I don't give a stuff what colour your rosette is.
I especially loathe the condescending and patronising ones who think they are more intelligent than the electorate and your comments on this thread fit the bill perfectly.
 
So to revive this thread one year on and when it looks virtually certain that the general election will be the same day as the Lambeth Council elections what do you reckon? I have received leaflets from Labour and the Lib Dems and a targeted mailing from Labour but nothing from anyone else. Not much general build up either - unlike last time when it seemed that Labour were very active in putting out material - or is it different in other more marginal wards?
 
What a fascinating thread - with some very knowledgeable analyses. But I would just like to quibble with a couple of things. Firstly this Electoral Reform Society analysis of the 2006 result in Lambeth is highly misleading in my opinion. It seems true that Labour went for an approach to target marginals (this is now standard policy for all parties, and is a big problem imo). But to make out that Labour's vote fell in 2006 is just not true. Labour got a lot more votes in Lambeth in 2006 in Lambeth than they did in 2002 - I haven't got the exact figures to hand but they increased their vote from about 57,000 to about 70,000; that's quite a big increase. In percentage terms their vote apparently dropped (which I hadn't known) but that's because the Greens more than doubled their vote and the tories significantly incresed theirs, while the Lib-Dems held about the same, so as a proportion of the whole vote they went down, but still a lot more people voted Labour in 06 than in 02.

Nonetheless to report that their vote dropped in percentage terms is technically correct but the ERS report has a highlighted quote from some local voter saying "how come in my area labour got fewer votes than before but more seats? Surely that's unfair" - and that seems dishonest reporting of the state of play to me.

(here's the ERS link quoted from above)

I thought the most interesting thing about the 2006 result was that Labour's vote went down 1% compared to 2002, but they gained 11 seats. This was achieved by focusing on key marginals (i.e. Princes, Knights Hill and Stockwell) rather than piling up votes in safe wards (i.e. Tulse Hill and Ferndale), as page 45 in this report demonstrates.




5) Agree the Greens are unlikely to make gains outside of Herne Hill, but not convinced their vote necessarily splits the anti-Labour vote.

It's true that the Greens probably won't make gains outside Herne Hill (although they have outside chances in Brixton Hill, Tulse Hill and Coldharbour) but where their votes come from is something of a mystery; they more than doubled their overall Lambeth vote in 2006 (taking 17,500 votes) - at the same time as the Labour and Conservative votes both went up quite dramatically and the Lib-Dems held steady.

Re the general point of the OP (ie -would the Greens end up in a coalition with the Lib-Dems and the Conservatives?) I think the fact that the Greens have just adopted a motion proposed by the Equality Trust as party policy rather suggests that they would be unlikely to do that. http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/node/311

In many ways, the Green Party is left of Labour (not a particularly difficult thing to be these days).
 
What a fascinating thread - with some very knowledgeable analyses. But I would just like to quibble with a couple of things. Firstly this Electoral Reform Society analysis of the 2006 result in Lambeth is highly misleading in my opinion. It seems true that Labour went for an approach to target marginals (this is now standard policy for all parties, and is a big problem imo). But to make out that Labour's vote fell in 2006 is just not true. Labour got a lot more votes in Lambeth in 2006 in Lambeth than they did in 2002 - I haven't got the exact figures to hand but they increased their vote from about 57,000 to about 70,000; that's quite a big increase. In percentage terms their vote apparently dropped (which I hadn't known) but that's because the Greens more than doubled their vote and the tories significantly incresed theirs, while the Lib-Dems held about the same, so as a proportion of the whole vote they went down, but still a lot more people voted Labour in 06 than in 02.

Nonetheless to report that their vote dropped in percentage terms is technically correct but the ERS report has a highlighted quote from some local voter saying "how come in my area labour got fewer votes than before but more seats? Surely that's unfair" - and that seems dishonest reporting of the state of play to me.

(here's the ERS link quoted from above)








It's true that the Greens probably won't make gains outside Herne Hill (although they have outside chances in Brixton Hill, Tulse Hill and Coldharbour) but where their votes come from is something of a mystery; they more than doubled their overall Lambeth vote in 2006 (taking 17,500 votes) - at the same time as the Labour and Conservative votes both went up quite dramatically and the Lib-Dems held steady.

Re the general point of the OP (ie -would the Greens end up in a coalition with the Lib-Dems and the Conservatives?) I think the fact that the Greens have just adopted a motion proposed by the Equality Trust as party policy rather suggests that they would be unlikely to do that. http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/node/311

In many ways, the Green Party is left of Labour (not a particularly difficult thing to be these days).


It is interesting that Labour's total vote increased in 2006 (I haven't totted up the numbers), but I wouldn't agree that the ERS analysis is misleading. I think it helps to explain why Labour successfully regained control in Lambeth and failed in Southwark.

As the ERS report says: "[Labour's] vote share fell sharply in several wards which were either already safe for the party (such as Ferndale), or where Labour stood little chance of winning (such as Gipsy Hill or Bishop’s). Labour’s vote rose most precisely where it could do the most good – in the marginal wards the party stood to gain."

Is it too early to start a local elections thread? I am sticking with my earlier preduction a slightly reduced Labour majority, although the Lib Dems are going to be vulnerable to Labour in places like Oval on a general election day, and the Tories in Clapham Common.
 
My sources tell me that Lambeth Labour are launching their manifesto in the Grand Union pub on Acre Lane tomorrow (Tuesday) evening - apparently former Mayor of London Ken Livingstone will be there as well as Tessa Jowell.
 
You can get a sneak preview of the Lambeth Labour manifesto over here [edit 'cos yer busting me bandwidth!]

It promises "free swimming for every resident."

Blimey.

p5 also repeats an allegation against LibDem leader, Cllr Lumsden, which he is on the record as stating "will lead to a complaint to the standards committee if this is repeated during the election campaign."

Whoops.
 
p5 also repeats an allegation against LibDem leader, Cllr Lumsden, which he is on the record as stating "will lead to a complaint to the standards committee if this is repeated during the election campaign."

Whoops.

Which allegation is that? - I can't see anything on p5 which is specific to Cllr Lumsden, just general stuff vs the lib-dems/cons.
 
Yes, it is the allegation against the LibDems on p5. Cllr Reed specifically made the allegation against Cllr Lumsden at the most recent full council meeting.

In response, Cllr Lumsden said he would report anyone who repeats it during the election campaign to the standards committee.
 
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