*Brixton Movement for Justice March

We really thought that the MFJ march was going to be hijacked like the last one and end up with loads of shops trashed.

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Hijacked? How can a march be hijacked? Planes are hijacked. Marches are full of autonomous people who can make their own decisions about what they want to do EXCEPT when they are surrounded by lines of riot cops - then they are corralled into smaller and smaller spaces, their friends concerned queries about what is going on can be ignored and they can be held for two and a half hours before being released without any charges ever being made.

Fuck you with your pussying around and attempts at nice words. The reason you overreacted is because you know why we hate you, and you know we're right and will win, otherwise why the over reaction to what you already knew was a small demo? Surely not because you're trying to intimidate people away from expressing their feelings?

We did not attack anyone - we just kept them from going back to the town centre because we did not want any trouble.

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Bollocks. I was there. I saw it. I was thrown to the ground at one point. You DID attack us.

No windows went in either - well none that were reported to us anyway.

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The mothercare windows were done. And I wonder why nobody bothered reporting them to you? Possibly because (a) Brixton police station was closed (b) nobody trusts you.

On the reason for the march, I deeply, deeply regret that anyone should lose their life. No matter what the circumstances, no one deserves that.

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You sound like Tony Blair! And just as useful... You know that as a cop you are immune from facing the same fucked up justice system we do. You know that no cop has even gone to jail for any of the over 1000 killings by cops in the UK. That if you are investigated it will be by other cops.

I can understand the real concern and suspicion all this stuff churns up with the police. I try to build confidence and reassurance and this stuff just undermines it all.

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You are a part of the system. You uphold the injustices every time you put on the uniform. You allow it to happen. You are the bully boy upholding your rich masters' unfair property laws in return for the occasional scrap from his table and a pat on the head. You are not trusted or treated as a human being by those same masters. We're on different sides. You, I'm afraid, are the misguided foot soldier for the enemy and therefore we hate you.

Come on Commander.......nothing has driven me more to post this message than the desire to hear your answer to the last two......

I don't beleive that this is Commander Paddick. Can you offer some proof of your identity Commander? And if you are Mr Paddick, who the hell was Colin the Cop?

Colin the cop is an imposter from Inverness! See the other thread he was posting on!

Please note that 'Whiskey' is using the same ISP as 'the Commander' and is quite probably Colin the Cop/Blair Peach/Phoenix etc, the useless, trolling lying bullshitter from Inverness.

What's the matter Colin - are you too scared to put your own name and identity to your posts?

(Note: ALL IP addresses are logged, time-stamped and traceable and continuing abuse of these boards will result in an official complaint to the ISPs concerned)

[ 06 January 2002: Message edited by: editor ]

Where do I start? I am here as myself. I am a police officer and a human being. These are my own personal views. I am not giving some official view. I am doing this in my own time because I want to. I think it is really important that I talk to all sorts of people from all backgrounds to make sure I have a more balanced view of life. I really want to try to move beyond all the hate and anger people feel although I understand people are expressing how they really feel. This board provides an important place where people can express themselves and I would like to express myself as well.

I have to say that I was not in charge of the policing of the march although I was there. These things are a very difficult call. It is about balancing rights. It is about balancing the rights of people who want to protest against the rights of others not to have their properties broken into and their belongings stolen. We can debate forever whether the police were justified or not. The last march in the summer was convened by the same people, involved many of the same people and followed the same route. The organisers refused to tell the Brixton Superintendent what route they planned to take as required by the law. Deja vue or reasonable cause to think their might be trouble again? Shop owners and many others in the community said the police should have known their was going to be trouble and the police should have prevented the looting. I think what the police did was within the law and reasonable. Others will disagree.

I think there are many problems with the criminal justice system from start to finish. In general I think it does more good than harm and until we can think of a new system or changes to the existing one, I have to try to make it work the best it can for everyone. I am no lapdog of my political masters. I do not say the things I say here or elsewhere to impress anyone. I say what is on my heart and it often gets me into trouble, mainly with my bosses!

I love people. I love Brixton. I want to do my best for everyone, particularly for those whose voices are not often heard. Two choices I guess. You either think this is some kind of propoganda or a genuine attempt to broaden my understanding.

By the way, one of my tutors at Oxford said that whilst I was bright, he did not think I would do very well at exams as I had difficulty expressing myself on paper. So, sorry about the spelling and punctuation but I write like I speak. Never mind the gift wrapping, look at the content!!

The Commander: if you are who you say you are (I'm afraid I have my serious doubts, such is the nature of the web), please mail me - from a Metropolitan Police email address - and I'm sure we could set up a proper interview here.

I am an anarchist and therefore believe their are higher "rights" than property rights. I believe that the arbitrary division of the world into pieces that can be owned and withdrawn from use by another human being serves only those who managed to obtain the bits of land before laws and titles came into being.

I believe that if such things as universal rights exist (and this is something I'm still deciding on) that they include the right to not be killed or physically harmed because of the action or inaction by another human being. And the old "do as you will but harm none" which includes a right to act freely, responsible to your own conscience.

As a policeman you do not have the freedom of your own conscience. The opposite - you are ordered to not just consider some set of laws as absolute for yourself, but to impose them on others. This is whether you personally agree with them or not. In fact your training is aimed at eradicating any thoughts that law might not be the absolute measure of what is right and wrong.

I believe we can never have laws that represent what is absolutely right and wrong. Apart from the historical evidence showing how bad laws can be (slavery, rape not existing within marriage and millions more) there is the truism that every circumstance is different and therefore only the people present can know and judge what happened.

At best laws are patched together to try and handle the complexity - for example differentiating out "battered wife syndrome" to recognise that self defence need not always be because of an immediate threat. As a software engineer I am familiar with systems where new situations are continuously handled with a quick hack - they fast turn into unmanageable unwieldy monsters forever at breaking point (MS Windows anybody?). The best thing to do is start again from scratch as they are the result of a bad initial design.

At worst, and I would say usually, they are cobbled together by politicians scared of losing their jobs by doing anything other than cater to the current whims of the Sun. It reminds me of the NF's easy response to paedophiles (oh that thread again) which is string em all up, and as we discussed before is not at all helpful. But the politicians have no more choice than we as individuals do - they must play the system or be written out of the game because were they to try and recognise the true complexity of human interaction in their policies it would require intelligence, inhuman foresight and courage.

I believe we can come together to form a better society that works better and does not impinge on human beings freedom to live in the way that our current mess of a system does. I believe in true communism - anarchy. Where all economic entities (factories, services) are run by the workers and users of the system. Where we are free from property crime. We are free to concentrate on what makes human beings better off and not what turns a profit. Where we seek to bring out the best in everyone, not assume the worst.

Top post Ginger !

"Commander" - you write convincingly! Maybe you could clear up this little matter of "whiskey" who writes less well, but from the same ISP! And if you really want some form of dialogue, then consider taking up the editors offer!

I think there are many problems with the criminal justice system from start to finish. In general I think it does more good than harm and until we can think of a new system or changes to the existing one, I have to try to make it work the best it can for everyone. I am no lapdog of my political masters.

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What good does the criminal justice system do? Who benefits from it? You can't just make a claim like that, without substantiating it!

And I fully agree with Ginger: If you spend your life "going along with things", taking orders, (even if you find them distasteful) then you are a lapdog!You cannot be your own man within the system! Alex Olowade has discovered this to his cost!

Shop owners and many others in the community said the police should have known their was going to be trouble and the police should have prevented the looting

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So once again, we come back to this: you treat all protestors as criminals! You feel justified in detaining us, without arrest, before any crime has been committed! You oppress us! The same way as Black people have been oppressed! You stereotype us, dehumanise us and seek to neutralise us!
And then you write:

I really want to try to move beyond all the hate and anger people feel although I understand people are expressing how they really feel.

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And we do not respect the police, or like them, or trust them! And we realise that they are the enemy. Their role is to protect the system at all costs! As long as they are around, they stand in the way of freedom, of liberty and of justice!

So, could there be any point in continuing with a discussion I ask myself. I know this; I would never be a cop! And I will never believe that the Met is a benign organisation! I will never grow to respect it!

Hi Guys. Sorry it takes me a while to get back to you but I am very busy in the week! Anyway...

The concept of anarchism has always appealed to me. The idea of the innate goodness of the individual that is corrupted by society or the system. It is a theoretical argument but I am not sure everyone would behave well if there were no laws and no system. I believe there are many people forced into causing harm to others by the way society operates at the moment. They would not have to behave in this way if the current system did not exist or was radically different. What am I saying here? I am saying that the way society operates at the moment, with all the injustice and discrimination, pushes people to act against their nature to damage and harm others. Eradicate all injustice and discrimination - would that stop all people damaging and harming each other - I am not sure. If there were still people who would continue to exploit and harm others, how would you stop such injustice if you had no system, no society?

ginger nuts there are certainly higher rights than property rights. The right to physical and spiritual well-being of the individual must be higher rights. Why should people have arbitrary rights over pieces of the world? Of course if you believe in the innate goodness of the individual, in the absence of 'the system' all would work to the good of everyone - each according to their ability and each according to their need. Have we not tried this? The problem is, if individuals are innately selfish, out for what is in it for them, they will only or primarily work for the good of themselves and not 'the whole'.

"Do as you will but harm none" is the principle that I try to work to, within the constraints placed upon me. I have the freedom of my own conscience to the extent of the priorities I place on what I and my officers do. Does smoking small amounts of cannabis harm anyone else other than the smoker? I do not think so. Can I, as a police officer not enforce the law and get away with it. Probably not. So I introduce a pilot scheme where we do not arrest people for cannabis in Lambeth.

I am looking at a new strap line for the police in Lambeth - and this is spooky because I thought of it before I read your latest post ginger nuts - "Don't damage my community". What does that mean? I guess you could translate it into "DO as you will but harm none." Is this dialogue influencing me or am I not miles away from the thinking of my fellow posters?

Every circumstance is different and that is why police officers have discretion to enforce the law or not in a particular situation. It has advantages and disadvantages. It is open to getting much better resolutions and it is open to abuse.

freethepeeps I think the Editor says Whisey is Colin (obviously a master of disguise!) I e-mailed Ed. from work yesterday. Ed. if you did not get it call me in the office!

What good does the criminal justice system do? Well I guess it has the potential to enforce the "do as you will but harm none" ethos. If you do harm someone else, should there not be a sanction against that person. Now I am not saying that tradtional punishments like prison are the right or the most effective sanctions, but the criminal justice system has identified those who have unjustifiably harmed others and 'punished' them for that.

Of course whether you are talking about philosophies or religions or legal systems, they are all the products of, or have been interfered with, by human beings (even if the Bible is the Word of God, it is interpreted by human beings, etc.) I think all human beings are fallible and whatever you are talking about, if there are humans involved, it is flawed. The criminal jusice system is flawed.

I am trying to do the best I can in the job I do within the system that currently exists. I guess that puts me in the other camp to those who want to overthrow 'the system'. I do not treat all of anything as criminals - all protestors, all black people, all straight people (!) I try to treat each individual as an individual. Do not treat all police officers as lapdogs of a corrupt capitalist system. Dogs sometimes turn on their owners. They are notoriously unpredictable and they can end up working against the people that keep them! Kept dog is OK, I can live with that. Lapdog - in your dreams!

I admire anyone who passionately believes in their cause and I will defend their right to promote that cause provided they "harm none".

Well, I've ignored ColinTheCop's posts, as he's clearly a twat, but this Commander guy is making the effort and for that we must be grateful.
He seems to have a proactive approach - regardless of whether he's a cop or not, and so I think we could give him the space to let him argue his point or it'll all get a bit one sided.

And my own opinion of gun carrying in Brixton or anywhere else is simple - if you go out onto the streets armed, don't you dare come crying when you get shot.

The nutter with a cigarette lighter that was shot dead?

No pity whatsoever. Even if he was mentally ill.
I'd rather the guy was laid out cold on a mortuary slab where he can do no harm than left to terrorise people and encourage others to go out in public with a gun, seemingly immune to the laws in this country.

I fucking hate your board personality PK. I don't think you are as harsh in real life, but the stuff about Derek Bennett is really inhumane.

Yes, Derek Bennett, or anyone waving around what appeared to be a gun, on the streets of Brixton is asking for big trouble, and risks being shot dead. I know that. But the whole point is that it would have been better if he could have been stopped without being killed. (I have suggested methods for this elsewhere on these boards). There is also the issue of some Police appearing to (or in reality) be more trigger happy when it comes to black men. This also links to the disproportionate number of deaths of black men in Police custody.

Derek Bennett may not have been a very plesant charater (I don't know) but that doesn't mean he should have ended up dead. He was also the cousin of a friend and neighbour of mine that I have a great deal of respect for.

Perhaps you'd like to be introduced so you can say to his face how glad you are that his cousin is dead.

[ 12 January 2002: Message edited by: hatboy ]

About The Commander - yeah the above is all good, but I beleive it's not him. A clever impersonation maybe.

Commander - will you please contact the editor (Mike) from a Metropolitan Police email address or offer some other conclusive proof of your authenticity.

I have some stuff I want to talk to you about, but until we all know for sure that you are genuine I won't be reading yor posts. Thanks.

One more thing. I am not as right-on in real life as some people might think I appear here, but I do beleive strongly in truth and natural justice. I also know a wide variety of people in Brixton and care strongly about the area.

I e-mailed Ed. from work yesterday. Ed. if you did not get it call me in the office!

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I have repeatedly asked you to conclusively identify yourself by posting from a verifiable Met Police email address, yet you have failed to do so.

I've absolutely no intention of wasting my time on the phone asI can't think of any reason why your mail shouldn't have come through,

But to make it even easier for you, I've set up a special mailbox, just for you!

Feel free to mail me at this address:
MetPolice@urban75.com

Anything coming from a non-Met Police address will be ignored or reposted here.

Ho hum. Another day and *still* no email from the (ahem) 'Commander'.

Could it be because - surely not! - that he's nothing more than another sad alter ego of that pitiful loser, Colin the Cop?

You decide!

Dear Ed.

I am having trouble e-mailing from work. But I am posting this from work - I usually only post at weekends from home! Is that good enough for you?

I am very angry at being accused of being Colin the Cop. An apology would make me feel better!

So is he Colin the saddo or Brian the weird?? I think we should be told...

If you're having trouble with email at work, perhaps you could give someone in Bob Youldon's department at DoI a call? I'm sure they'd be only too happy to help (unless of course they're too busy losing videotapes, audiotapes, CCTV footage, files, etc).

Seeing as this mail has indeed come from a Metropolitan Police address (at last!), that goes some way to establishing that you are who you say you are - in which I unreservedly withdraw my comments about you being anything to do with the idiotic 'Colin The Cop'.

As a policemen, you're no doubt aware that it is prudent not to take things at face value and this becomes especially apparent in cyberspace, where all manner of idiots can trot out unverifiable nonsense and lies (witness Colin The Cop's recent disgraceful comments on Brixton Online (now thankfully deleted)

Although your approach to this board has been a little unorthodox so far, I would be happy to set up something where you could respond to points raised by Brixton posters - perhaps in the form of a dedicated and moderated forum?

Naturally, I would have to meet you face to face before proceeding, and I would also value the feedback from regulars on these boards...

[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: editor ]

as long as he is who he says he is then just let him post here like everyone else...

I suggest he spends some time reading the various threads concerning heroin and possible tactics to alleviate the problems caused by addiction...

But otherwise I welcome him like any other poster here..

Mike check him out beyond doubt eh?

Mike check him out beyond doubt eh?

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Indeed.

A Met Police posting address doesn't guarantee it's the same person and I shall remain extremely sceptical until it's proved beyond doubt!

Well, fuck me ragged!

SSHH john, thats obscene words and behaviour!

Mike check him out beyond doubt eh?

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No-one ever asked me if I freed any peeps.

No-one ever checked if Panda Killer does what it says on the can!

No-one asked Addict to prove that he has a substance problem!

The Commander has now proved that he has access to a Met computer, and from his writing it appears that he knows something about policing. He also suggests he is Paddick, and if he is not, opens himself up to all sorts of potential difficulties!

Is that enough tho?

Commander,

How do we know that you won't try and track us down if you don't like our posts?

Under what circumstances would you see yourself demanding IP addresses from the editor?

What do you hope to gain from a dialogue on these boards?

Will you address the points made in my last post about preventing crime!

I await your response with bated breath!

freethepeeps

And you can try being all fluffy about things but are you going to refuse to send your officers to act illegally and undemocratically on events like May Day like you did last year? I think not!

I remain suspicious ... is he actually a cop at all? He might just be a civilian employee of the Police with access to one of their computers as has been suggested.

It is quite amusing though..Will people self regulate their posts knowing we have a rozzer on board..? If it indeed is Paddick well he does seem to be one of the more reasonable policemen but no doubt he would do the usual perjury to defend his more knuckle head collegues....

This is really weird. On the one hand I want to be taken seriously so I can have a decent debate with you guys. I have never had so much trouble trying to prove who I am before but I guess I cannot show my warrant card on the internet! On the other hand I want to be completely open about my own personal views. If I do prove who I am beyond any doubt, who is to say that the more controversial things I might be tempted to say might not appear in the Press? There are real dangers in this for me as well!

TopCat, this is like the comments I get at parties. "You'll have to watch what you drink now Brian's here". That record is a bit worn out.

freethepeeps take a look at the South London Press Friday quoting me at the Police Consultative Group meeting. I said whilst I did not agree with what Alex said most of the time, I would defend his right to say it. This is not the thought police. This is about finding out what people really think. I am here in my private capacity, as a thinking human being who wants to check out what he does and what he thinks against other people. In the position I am in, if my thinking is wrong I could do a lot of people a disservice.

I cannot see me ever asking the editor for IP addresses and I am sure the editor will never give them to me. You asked me before what I want out of these boards. I want to talk to people from very different backgrounds who would never otherwise meet with me or talk to me. People with radically different ideas (or that is what we might think) who can help me check out my own frame of reference and my own ideas. If you have senior police officers who refuse to listen to alternative views, we are on course for some very unhealthy situations. (I cannot see what you mean about 'crime prevention' but that is probably me being dumb!)

Ed. - you should have my work e-mail by now - lets meet! Unless of course you want to keep your readers in suspense!

Ok so I will stop the cheap jibes here...

I am curious that there are police who are interested in the views of those who recieve the service, i have the enduring impression that most of the met live outside of the area that they police with consequensial lack of empathy for the service users and a lack of responsibility for their actions.

could you not encourage your officers to live in lambeth or have all the police flats been sold now?

"I cannot see me ever asking the editor for IP addresses and I am sure the editor will never give them to me."

You've never heard of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, then?