Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Any chance of you posting on the topic and stop following me about please?
Desmond Tutu on Hamas & The Israeli Blockade of Gaza
- Thread starter Grandma Death
- Start date
Any chance of you posting on the topic and stop following me about please?
Gee Phil, welcome to each other. Somce sort of diorser but I have not catlouged it yet.
To other sad sailors: What does it matter what I think about sad old Moono? Good riddance is my ultimate take on it.
As for proof Grandma, against all odds you have asked in a civil fashion and therefore this afternoon I will offer you that which you could have easily gotten yourself, a link to examine the record of ther UN Human Rights nonsense. I am sure though, that if my mind wanders, you will put me back on track with your one line tough love adages. Until then, toodaloo (did not know I spoke French, did you? hahahaha).
To other sad sailors: What does it matter what I think about sad old Moono? Good riddance is my ultimate take on it.
As for proof Grandma, against all odds you have asked in a civil fashion and therefore this afternoon I will offer you that which you could have easily gotten yourself, a link to examine the record of ther UN Human Rights nonsense. I am sure though, that if my mind wanders, you will put me back on track with your one line tough love adages. Until then, toodaloo (did not know I spoke French, did you? hahahaha).
Haha how amusing. Are you going to "resign" now?
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
I look forward to it with baited breath-and if possible some clear examples of the bishops hatred for Israel (something more than plain old criticism if you will).
Thanks in advance again.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
To cease posting on Urban and putting the words 'Resigned' as your tagline is always a good indicator.
"Palestinian"? Why the quotes? Trying to wish a nation away? Thought Zionist nukes would be best, huh?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Any chance of you not attempting to bring arguments from other threads onto this one?
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Ignoring the personal shit, I'd be interested in evidence that Tutu was "always an Israel hater". I will not accept as examples of "Israel hatred": dislike for certain Israeli policies, dislike for certain actions of the Israeli state, distaste for the outcomes of either.
It says more about the starting point of the accuser that Tutu might been seen as a political extremist of any kind, far less a racist.
It says more about the starting point of the accuser that Tutu might been seen as a political extremist of any kind, far less a racist.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
This would be the "Jewish lobby" that even Fox News, that epitome of right-wing conservative cretinism, admits exerts influence over US policy?
The "Jewish lobby" that the US print media (even the headbangers like Krauthammer and Podhoretz) remarks on for it's exertion of influence over the decisions of members of Congress?
The same "Jewish lobby" (AIPAC [et al) that Jews the world over make comment about along the same lines?
Heck, I suppose that makes them "anti-Jewish" too!
Who said anything about "control", Rachamim?
Do you not think he's in a fair position to gauge whether or not a situation appears to him to share attributes with the system he spent most of his adult life in?
Of course you don't.
Yeah, because you have the whole story, Rachamim, don't you, rather than just the partisan version that supports your contentions.
So many reiterations of his "many" statements, so few actual citations given.
Remind me which of the Basic Laws enshrines Israel as a "Zionist State" please, Rachamim.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
You have access to the opinions of the moderators on this matter, do you, phil?
I mean, you must have , or you wouldn't be so foolish, arrogant or plain hubristic as to make such a bald statement as "He jumped before he was pushed, that's the truth of it", would you?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
So would I.
Neither should you accept such, they'd be irrelevant to discerning the reality (or not) of Tutu's "Israel hatred" or "anti-Jewishness".
Indeed.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
This is a curious conflation, if you don't mind me saying.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Indeed, but there does seem to be a point of view which holds that to disagree with the actions or policy of the Israeli state is synonymous with anti-semitism.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Indeed, but there does seem to be a point of view which holds that to disagree with the actions or policy of the Israeli state is synonymous with anti-semitism.
It's a point that I've heard issue forth from the "Jewish establishment" in the UK, usually when they're defending the execution of the policies of the state of Israel.
As is the way of such things, even when requested, substantiation comes there none.
Grandma: Qlthough you seem to be reverting to your usual nastiness, you DID ask in a civil fashion, AND I DID agree to comply as for proof the revamped UN Human Rights cadre so here is a link where you ccan examine the evidence yourself:
www.themiddleeastnow.com/humanrightscouncil.html
www.themiddleeastnow.com/humanrightscouncil.html
Poi: "Why the quotation marks around the word "Palestinian"?": I have explained this several times already. See, the word was used by the British only as far as describing a People and they used it to describe EVERYONE born within the Britsh Mandate's Southern Syrian portion which includes what is now Jordan. My father, 100 percent Jewish is "Palestinian" by virtue if his British administered birth certificate and so is every other ethnicity , clss, and religion that happened to have been born in or reside in that partocular region.
In 1948 Arabs of this same era coopted the label when Jews began calling themselves Israelis as per their newly REestablished nation that had just been ratified into existence by the UN.
Prior to 1948 there was no such People as far as specific ethnicities go. There has NEVER been an Arab nation where Israel, Gaza, and the so called "West Bank" now exist. The ONLY organic nation to have sat there were two Jewish nations, Israel and Judea, and now modern Israel.
The name "Palestine" as you surely know was attached to this region by Roman conquerors after a nearly 400 year and very bloody campaign of conquest. they did so out of spite for the indigenous Jewish inhabitants since the Phillistines were seen as one of the most hated enemies of the Jews in the Roman mind.
Since the Phillistines were an offshoot of the Phoenecians, i.e. Proto Mycaenean Greeks from the island of Crete who had settled mostly in what is now Gaza (they had a league of 5 cities actually but their religious and cultural center was Gaza) very shortly before the ancient Jewish tribes came and settled beside them and finally making them extinct.
There is no denying however that today there IS a distinctive Arab group who shared suffering and short but shared habitacion of the land now alternatively known as Israel , "Palestine," or Jordan DOES make them a People in their own right.
In 1919 they , just like the Jews, were offered theri own state but refused in hopes of getting all the land. in 22 Jordan was created, its population almost totally consisting of these local Arabs but its monarchy installed by the UK, hailing froim the true Arab homeland of Hejaz in what is now Arabia.
Ergo, since that fateful refusal and many subsequent refusals their lot in life has gotten progressively worse...to no fault of any Zionist or Jew (or Israeli if you wish to be extremely technical).
The point? A People NOW calling themselves "Palestinians" certainly does exist but without any histroical context behind it.
In 1948 Arabs of this same era coopted the label when Jews began calling themselves Israelis as per their newly REestablished nation that had just been ratified into existence by the UN.
Prior to 1948 there was no such People as far as specific ethnicities go. There has NEVER been an Arab nation where Israel, Gaza, and the so called "West Bank" now exist. The ONLY organic nation to have sat there were two Jewish nations, Israel and Judea, and now modern Israel.
The name "Palestine" as you surely know was attached to this region by Roman conquerors after a nearly 400 year and very bloody campaign of conquest. they did so out of spite for the indigenous Jewish inhabitants since the Phillistines were seen as one of the most hated enemies of the Jews in the Roman mind.
Since the Phillistines were an offshoot of the Phoenecians, i.e. Proto Mycaenean Greeks from the island of Crete who had settled mostly in what is now Gaza (they had a league of 5 cities actually but their religious and cultural center was Gaza) very shortly before the ancient Jewish tribes came and settled beside them and finally making them extinct.
There is no denying however that today there IS a distinctive Arab group who shared suffering and short but shared habitacion of the land now alternatively known as Israel , "Palestine," or Jordan DOES make them a People in their own right.
In 1919 they , just like the Jews, were offered theri own state but refused in hopes of getting all the land. in 22 Jordan was created, its population almost totally consisting of these local Arabs but its monarchy installed by the UK, hailing froim the true Arab homeland of Hejaz in what is now Arabia.
Ergo, since that fateful refusal and many subsequent refusals their lot in life has gotten progressively worse...to no fault of any Zionist or Jew (or Israeli if you wish to be extremely technical).
The point? A People NOW calling themselves "Palestinians" certainly does exist but without any histroical context behind it.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Thanks for that. I am however looking for proof that:
Because from what I have read the panel only passed resolutions on Israel-they did however examine other cases of human rights abuses,they just didn't pass resolutions on them.
And what of the evidence that Tutu hates Israel.....do you have specific evidence this is the case or are you mistaking criticism for hate?
Danny: I do not believe that hating Jews makes anyone a racist. However, I have already offered an example of the man's usage of stock "Racial" insults made against Jews, as well as hiw choice to redit out the comment 3 years later for posterity's sake. Accusing the "Jewish Lobby" in America of steering policy is verbatim ZOG nonsense.
There are many more examples of such statement and action and perhaps later I will post a short list.
Panda: See, there is a distinct difference between statintg the existence of soemthing, anything, and then maintaining that this "something" has inordinate control over a large sector of what inspires Americans to think and develop opinions.
For example, of course AIPAC exists, does AIPAC steer American poilicy? Of course not and to suggest so is to believe that Jews are a monolithic entity that vote for whoever their rabbis dictate to vote for and anyone slightly knowing of the Jewish community knows this to be riudiculous. For someone as emminent as a Nobel Peace Lauterate like Tuttu to repeat strock "Protocols of the Elders" garbage is appalling.
Knowing how well you like to argue, I have no suprise that you have taken issue with it but is it at all possible that someone who uses such terminology and then makes a conscious decison to re-edit it out 3 years later because he reputedly realised the "heat" it was causing him, have actually held (and hold) anti Jewish bias? Perish the thought!
"Who said anything of control?": Here comes the "Semantics Game!" Everyone grab some paper and pen and sit down for the next rpound. Actually, f you examine the speech in which he gave it you would not be asking. In fact, even ignoring the context of his speech, or anyother thing contained therein, when a person maintains that Jews control the Media they usually believe that this control results ion control of other key areas of infrastructure a la ZOG.
As stated, I will provide a short list later on.
"IS Tutu in a fair poisition to judge whether or not Israel is engaging in practices under which Tutu lived a major portion of his life?": Certainly he has the right to offer his opinion but let us see exactly why he said it about this current trip to Gaza: Tut says he was shocked and it struck him that it was just like Apartheid Era S. Africa because "no children were playing and waving at his motorcade.": Give me a break.
It could have been one of many things. One, HAMAS Security could have cleaned the route as they usually do when personages of a certain stature are making their way through Gaza City...Two, it could have been the institutional racial prejudice exhbited by Gazans who still use the idomatic term for "salve" when speaking of anything "black." It is still claimed that slaves are being kept in Gaza despite Egypt outl;awing the practice in the early 60s (again) , when they followed the lead of the Saudi.
As outlandish as it seems, Tutu is black, he is a Christain, he does not rate much on the Arab Street . Quite a claim I am making, right? Yet it is 100 percent accurate.
Who can say why children did not wave at him but what I can say is that saying Israel engages in Apartheid because Gazan Arab children choose not to wave at a prominenet black Christain is pretty muich of a non-issue.
It is his first visit as far as I know since his last attempt was preempted by Israeli Security and he was barred from entering. So, on the basis of one visit in the middle of a blockade he has the audacity to make blanket statements.
One would imagine that Apartheid like practices would extend to the more than 2.3 million Arab-Israeli CITIZENS who not only have every right I have but a few extra.
There are many more examples of such statement and action and perhaps later I will post a short list.
Panda: See, there is a distinct difference between statintg the existence of soemthing, anything, and then maintaining that this "something" has inordinate control over a large sector of what inspires Americans to think and develop opinions.
For example, of course AIPAC exists, does AIPAC steer American poilicy? Of course not and to suggest so is to believe that Jews are a monolithic entity that vote for whoever their rabbis dictate to vote for and anyone slightly knowing of the Jewish community knows this to be riudiculous. For someone as emminent as a Nobel Peace Lauterate like Tuttu to repeat strock "Protocols of the Elders" garbage is appalling.
Knowing how well you like to argue, I have no suprise that you have taken issue with it but is it at all possible that someone who uses such terminology and then makes a conscious decison to re-edit it out 3 years later because he reputedly realised the "heat" it was causing him, have actually held (and hold) anti Jewish bias? Perish the thought!
"Who said anything of control?": Here comes the "Semantics Game!" Everyone grab some paper and pen and sit down for the next rpound. Actually, f you examine the speech in which he gave it you would not be asking. In fact, even ignoring the context of his speech, or anyother thing contained therein, when a person maintains that Jews control the Media they usually believe that this control results ion control of other key areas of infrastructure a la ZOG.
As stated, I will provide a short list later on.
"IS Tutu in a fair poisition to judge whether or not Israel is engaging in practices under which Tutu lived a major portion of his life?": Certainly he has the right to offer his opinion but let us see exactly why he said it about this current trip to Gaza: Tut says he was shocked and it struck him that it was just like Apartheid Era S. Africa because "no children were playing and waving at his motorcade.": Give me a break.
It could have been one of many things. One, HAMAS Security could have cleaned the route as they usually do when personages of a certain stature are making their way through Gaza City...Two, it could have been the institutional racial prejudice exhbited by Gazans who still use the idomatic term for "salve" when speaking of anything "black." It is still claimed that slaves are being kept in Gaza despite Egypt outl;awing the practice in the early 60s (again) , when they followed the lead of the Saudi.
As outlandish as it seems, Tutu is black, he is a Christain, he does not rate much on the Arab Street . Quite a claim I am making, right? Yet it is 100 percent accurate.
Who can say why children did not wave at him but what I can say is that saying Israel engages in Apartheid because Gazan Arab children choose not to wave at a prominenet black Christain is pretty muich of a non-issue.
It is his first visit as far as I know since his last attempt was preempted by Israeli Security and he was barred from entering. So, on the basis of one visit in the middle of a blockade he has the audacity to make blanket statements.
One would imagine that Apartheid like practices would extend to the more than 2.3 million Arab-Israeli CITIZENS who not only have every right I have but a few extra.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Nope...still not convinced. You haven't given one single example of anti semitism coming from the mouth of Desmond Tutu.
You are mistaking criticism for hatred rach.
Now it's clear rach has no evidence for the Tutu claim, it's time to point out that the link he provided isn't evidence for anything (apart from the mindset of its author) - let alone proof.
It's a whinge about how the new UN body pays more attention to Israel's human rights abuses - which the author admits - than the author would like.
And a boilerplate criticism that - gosh! - UN bodies contain representatitives of countries that aren't perfect.
It's a whinge about how the new UN body pays more attention to Israel's human rights abuses - which the author admits - than the author would like.
And a boilerplate criticism that - gosh! - UN bodies contain representatitives of countries that aren't perfect.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
It's looking that way-once again.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
This is proof of nothing; it is a complaint that there are many countries with terrible human rights records. I wasn't aware anyone had contested that, but let me be the first to agree: yes, sadly, there are many countries with terrible human rights records.
So, any evidence Desmond Tutu is a rabid Israel hater?
No, just a remark that America has a powerful Jewish lobby. Does anyone contest that either? No, didn't think so.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Are you seriously suggesting AIPAC aren't in any way influential? Poppycock.
I want to see some evidence to support your bizarre allegation that Tutu is repeating "Protocols of Elders garbage". Oh and please try not to put words into my mouth, there's a good fellow.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Did you support apartheid, Rach?
Does this look familiar?
Who pays you to spread this stuff around the Internet?
The interesting thing about this post is that it is nothing but a narrative. It conveniently overlooks the fact that the Arabs were shat on by the British after being promised a homeland (along with the Kurds and the Assyrians).
The most breathtaking thing about your 'analysis' is the way in which you ignore the blatant human rights abuses that take place in Palestine and the proposed Bantustanisation of the region. Your attacks on Bishop Tutu reflect the hatred that you have for anyone who dares to criticise the racism and brutal methods that have been sanctioned by the Israeli state.
Does this look familiar?
Who pays you to spread this stuff around the Internet?
The interesting thing about this post is that it is nothing but a narrative. It conveniently overlooks the fact that the Arabs were shat on by the British after being promised a homeland (along with the Kurds and the Assyrians).
The most breathtaking thing about your 'analysis' is the way in which you ignore the blatant human rights abuses that take place in Palestine and the proposed Bantustanisation of the region. Your attacks on Bishop Tutu reflect the hatred that you have for anyone who dares to criticise the racism and brutal methods that have been sanctioned by the Israeli state.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Quantify "inordinate control".
Except no one (except you, btw) has claimed that this exists or occurs, not me, not Tutu, not the majority of people.
For you to attempt semantic manipulations based on your own prejudices is also appalling.
So you feel it's valid to condemn someone on the basis of your own perceptions (or perhaps not your own, perhaps those of your peers or of parts of the media) of an occurrence?
Interesting.
Is that the best you can manage, a whine about semantics when you're perfectly happy to rely on them for your own argument?
Except, of course, that the word "control" wasn't used, and only influence was implied.
I'll believe that only when I see the promised list.
Again with the semantic manipulation, the mis-quotes and the half-truths!
Time is limited so I will toss this one up and get back to it later. He was not statting that America had a powerful Jewish Lobby which in fact is nothing but actual factual infromation. HE stated that THIS Lobby kept America from amking constructive foreign policy decisons since it was keen on pleasing these Jewish Lobbyinsts and that my fellow Urbanites is stock "Protocol" nonsense.
As for the UN Human Rights brouhaha. It is not that they concentrated onn Israel, it is that they ONLY DEALT with Israel. It is not the Un Human Rights whatever, it is the UN Anti Israel Committee.
I will get back to all this later but here is a little link to get you started:
www.themiddleeastnow.com/humanrightscouncil.html
As for the UN Human Rights brouhaha. It is not that they concentrated onn Israel, it is that they ONLY DEALT with Israel. It is not the Un Human Rights whatever, it is the UN Anti Israel Committee.
I will get back to all this later but here is a little link to get you started:
www.themiddleeastnow.com/humanrightscouncil.html
Is it fuck.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
I'd like to see a link to exactly what he said-come on rach. I think urbanites would like to make their own mind up rather than accept your interpretation.
Also where's this list you promised?
No they didnt. The only passed resolutions on Israel-they did however look at human rights abuses in Darfur. You're wrong.
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
AIPAC is better described as a pro-Likud lobby rather than a pro-Israel lobby.
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