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Fitna the movie

Frog: "What would Jews do if there was a movie claiming that the Talmud ordered Jews to be violent and hateful,etc.": Too late, there have been a few already. This thing exist I have found, amongst criticism of all major faiths and many of the smaller faiths as well.

The Qu'ran is what it is. It came into existence during a very harsh time, in a very harsh environment. The difference with Islam however is that the context has changed, but the teachings have not been adapted.

I will offer my own faith as an example; In Judiaism one may rape a girl in order to take her for his wife. Actually the marriage is presented to both parties (clan of the victim, and clan of the actor) as a sort of penanance and equitable settlement.


In the days of old people raided other desert encampments and did very bad things. Jews have many customs and practices that today seem very unpalatable and yet they remain virtually unknown outside of the Jewish People (even many Jews, like Frog I am sure, are not even aware of it) and a handful of scholars.

The reason for this is quite simple. Even the most tradional minded of the Jews have accepted the undeniable truith that the world spins and time passes. As time passes some practices become impractical or unneccessary.

A young man who does not follow his father's words to the letter is no longer dragged through the dirt to the village gate, buried up to his neck in dirt, camel or mule dung piled around his neck, and set the dung on fire. As he burns and screams in anguish the young village boys under age 13 are made to stone him to death.

These practices which seem quite barbaric, when taken in full context, make quite alot of sense. It also is perfectly sensible that these practices are no longer utilised when the environment and social context that spawned them no longer exists.

Ergo, why do Muslim men still follow the edicts of Sura 4? Aldeberan tells us thatwhen people quote the Qu'ran, meaning those who quote it in a critical fashion, they do in a way that leaves the quotations fragmented and out of their original context. While this is true in many cases, it is not universally true.

People call Islam a merciful faith. They point to the ediucts concerning the treatment of the People of the Book as good proof of this. However, they neglect to mention the concept of "Dhimmi," and I do not mean the U75 poster of that name. At best, People of the Book got to live an inferior existence.

Usually, as has been the case in Yemen for many centuries, Jews were emasculated, forbidden to carry the curved dagger that Yemen men even until today wear so prominently on their belts. The Yemeni Jews are forbidden in many places to walk between 2 Muslims so that their shadow does not dirty them.

Of course that is all mincemeat when taken in comparison with the realisation that a Jew is not even allowed to transit Arabia or the UAE, because of Wahhabi interpreations of the Qu'ran.

If you wish to compare Islam with Christianity and/or Judaisim you must first acknowledge that the latter 2 have evolved even among the most funndamnetalist of factions. This is not debatable as I see it. Islam however has evolved very, very little.

As it has been explained to me (when I took courses at a madrassa in Jerusalem), it is because Muhammed's connection to the almighty is sancrosanct and irrevocable. His rendition supercerdes all previous Revelations , even when this ultimate Revelation clearly contradicts the previous Revelation(s).

Before true dialog can take place honesty must be held closely. Political Correctness is fine and dandy but it tends to clutter up real and important issues.
 
Krow:"Zionists feel free to criticise anyone . but when someone criticises Zionists/Zionism, it is termed 'Hate Speech'.":No, criticism of Zionists or Zionism is never called "Hate Speech" unless the person claiming it believes the comments are being used to merely clothe unpaltable hate speech in somewhat politically correct conversation.

As if..."Israelis brutalise the 'Palestinians' and oppress them. They treat them like the Nazis treated Jews and that is a shame. You would think that the Jews would have learned something after the way the Nazis brutalised THEM!.": Do you see the distinction that needs to be made? This is but one of thousands of things I personally have heard.

Jews ans Zionists are not synonymous with one another. One need not be Zionist if they are a Jew, and a Zionist need not be Jewish if they are not alreasy.

The key is to discern between actual and valid criticism which is very healthy and should be engaged in whenever possible, and that which is being manipulated and used to spew hatred and propagate ignorance.

Lock: "Van Gogh murdered by a Dutchman.": Poi is correct, the killer was both Dutch and Muslim.
 
Aldeberan: "They shopwed photos of Ashura.": Well then...It IS a holiday (for Shia) is it not? It often involves blood letting and acts of orgiastic violence does it not? To be fair though, both Jews and Christains also have similar small segments of their respective populations who also engage in this type of behavoir.

However, perhaps it comes down to context as you have said often in this thread. Looking at Ashura against the backdrop of Islam as a whole, one sees a thread of commonality. From beginning (which of course, as I mentioned earlier is completely understandable given THAT context) to the current ers the faith has been embroiled in violence against non-believers.

Her is a fun little game. Name a single memner of the Islamic League, any one of the 57 member entities 956 nations plus the PA), anf name a single one currently not embroiled in battling insurrections or outright revolutions.

A second exercise is to identify a single nation in the world with a sizable Islamic community that has not a portion of that otherwise hournable group turn against thgeir new new society.

No matter where yo go, from Chinese Kashmir, to Chechnya, to Morroco,to the Philippines, to Libya there is fighting. Most often between different Islamic factions BUT whenever one finds other groups in close proximity it is happening as well.

The point of the fighting is to achieve religious objectives so that one might convincingly argue that it is indeed a culture of violence.

Even without 1400 year old words telling us so, words that we can write off as having been written for a different place and a different time (despite the claim that the Qu'ran is 'untampered' with and the ultimate Revelation) we can see that throughout history Islam has been constantly drenched in blood.

People can point to the Khalifa of al Andalus, and even there it was true. the fghting was nearly constant, and if not in Andalus it was in other parts of the vast Islamic World.

Forgive me but telling us that you are a Muslim, a historian and scholar, and that your first doctoral thesis was on the histroy of the Qu'ran serves what opurpose? Not to be dismissive because for one thing, I often talk about myself, and another is that I applaud people who are as honest as they can be....We surely need more of it...BUT, you told us this in reponse to a poster whose point you differed with as to shut them down: "Look, you can say what you want but not only AM I a Muslim, I have devoted my life to the study of it and its central Scripture, the Qu'ran."

It is like my saying, "I do not care what you say about Israel and the IDF, I know you are wrong because I am an Israeli who served the IDF for 24 yeares, my entire adult life." In the end, taken by itself, it is just another collection of words.

Are you Muslim? Are you smart? Does saying yes to either one one or both of those things then mean that you are the heare all, end all? Absolutely not. It simply means that you are entitled to your opinion just like the shoeshine boy. Backed by a persuasive argument though, you are good to go.

"One must hold the central message of a specific section of Qu'ran against the Qu'ran as whole in order to get a good handling of the work.": Very, very true and this is why people just snatching soundbites and blurbs off of partisan websites and periodicals are engaging in something that is just about meaningless.

"Everything we examine can be interpreted in a negative fashion.": True. And then there are things whose meaning does not rely on implications or heavy pondering...Things like the 4th Sura for example?

It is akin to a Jew maintaining that the Negative Mitzvah (Commandment/Blessing) that "one should hold no other G-D before G-D (or as English speaking Christains love to say, "...before thee...")" is open to interepreation. Somethings are what they are.

"Islam is getting wings instead of sinking.": On this we surely agree. It is said to be the world's fastest growing reeligion and from my travels I can attest to the veracity of the statement.
 
David: "Both Christianiuty and Islam originated in the Middle-East and yet Islam is included in the Middle-East forum and Christianity generally is not.": PErhaps it has a biut to do with demographics, as well as centers of faith. While Christianity's hooliest sites are in Israel and the so called "WB," it is usually traced to the Church of St Peter (should be called Church of Constantine but that is another kettle), which if ciurse is located in Rome.

For almost its first 1500 years, most of Christianity looked towards Rome and a great number still do. Muslims on the other hand havbe always looked to the Hejaz and Jerusalem.

The two faiths playing it out in that region of course are Judiaism and Islam. Christianity is sort of like the watrerboy. IT has a vested interest but is not in the field.It [;ays the bench. That perhaps is the best analogy I can use at the moment.
 
Yes but about 1/5th or less of the worlds Muslims live in the Middle East and this is a European film. I think that the placing the OP here shows an intriguing mindset of blanking out the Nigerians, Pakistanis and Indonesians. It seems to be almost an intellectual 'ghettoisation' of Islam to the Middle Eastern forum.
 
rachamim18 said:
Frog: "What would Jews do if there was a movie claiming that the Talmud ordered Jews to be violent and hateful,etc.": Too late, there have been a few already. This thing exist I have found, amongst criticism of all major faiths and many of the smaller faiths as well.

The Qu'ran is what it is. It came into existence during a very harsh time, in a very harsh environment. The difference with Islam however is that the context has changed, but the teachings have not been adapted.
Click to expand...

Would you mind listing some of these films that have criticised others faiths in the same way as fitna have and in reply to the second paragraph their are efforts to reform islam and even re-write part of the qu'ran.

This group being the most prominent
 
rachamim18 said:
Forgive me but telling us that you are a Muslim, a historian and scholar, and that your first doctoral thesis was on the histroy of the Qu'ran serves what opurpose? Not to be dismissive because for one thing, I often talk about myself, and another is that I applaud people who are as honest as they can be....We surely need more of it...BUT, you told us this in reponse to a poster whose point you differed with as to shut them down: "Look, you can say what you want but not only AM I a Muslim, I have devoted my life to the study of it and its central Scripture, the Qu'ran."

/QUOTE]

I think that you are referring to my post here, and I would like to say that the impression I was left with was not the same as that which you imply. I simply said that I had no reason to doubt that Ald was what he claimed to be, and that the truth of his statement would become clear over time. Ald indicated that I should search to see the evidence of his involvement and knowledge of Islam, which I have done.

I am looking forward to engaging with Ald regarding Islam.

:)
Click to expand...
 
krow said:
How is a Zionist a Catholic do you mean?

Although "a Catholic", he has admired Israel many times, which he had previously visited "about 40 times". He claims that people can work for their money there, unlike in the Netherlands. SNiP
Click to expand...

No I don't mean that, if I had I'd have asked that question. That's interesting as a response though, especially as you ignored the gist of my original response.

Ran "Although "a Catholic", he has admired Israel many times, which he had previously visited "about 40 times". He claims that people can work for their money there, unlike in the Netherlands." through google and the very first item, and indeed the only item to contain those two sentences, returned led to ; http://groups.google.com/group/misc...read/thread/783fb0e314abe9b0/a53f5aaf648a1ce6
 which opens rather charmingly with; "The newly-released anti-Islam film by (crypto- jew and Israeli agent) right-wing Dutch legislator Geert Wilders..." and then goes on to repeat the bulk of your response word for word. This was posted just days before you posted it by http://iamthewitness.com/

They have some interesting information there, books about the international Jewish conspiracy;
Synagogue.of.Satan.jpg


and other fascinating documents;

The.Dearborn.Independent.jpg


Henry Ford printed a booklet that he distributed with his cars. The title was The International Jew, and thanks to the Internet it is more widespread today than it ever was in his lifetime. Now we have the book in our own archive for your education. Please read what he had to say.

plus some informative editorials;

The Protocols of Zion
One of our listeners has translated it into modern English. The originals, who can be found here, are 100 years old.

More propaganda on 9/11 health
John Feal hurt his foot on 9/11 and is now "helping" other victims, but he blames "terrorists" for 9/11. Please counteract this nonsense!

The takeover of the banking system
We must get rid of the bankers and Zionism. Don't settle for a partial solution.

Crypto-Jews in Armenia
Look for the interview about the Crypto-Jews who caused the genocide of Armenians but fooled the world into blaming Turks:

Jewish Ritual Murder
This site has a translation of a book published in 1941 in Germany. It's difficult to believe, but watch this video of a woman on the Oprah show to put you in the mood (a copy of that video is here)

trent2.gif

This translation is dedicated to Dr. Hellmut Schramm, whose fate remains unknown, and to Julius Streicher* and all the other investigators who have paid with their lives for publicizing information about this subject

Enlightening to discover that if something isn't a Jewish conspiracy it's a crypto-Jewish conspiracy. Does make one wonder how anyone might see some criticism of Zionism ever being anti-semetic. Thanks for sharing :hmm:

Is a trifle odd that you compared "Fitna" to a Jewish version of "Ewige Jude", but you seem to get your information from sources which are neo-nazi. Care to explain this co-incidence?


* Julius Streicher was a prominent Nazi prior to World War II. He was the publisher of the Nazi Der Stürmer newspaper, which was to become a part of the Nazi propaganda machine. His publishing firm released three anti-Semitic books for children, including the 1938 Der Giftpilz (The Poison Mushroom), one of the most widespread pieces of propaganda, which purported to warn about insidious dangers Jews posed by using the metaphor of an attractive yet deadly mushroom. After the war, he was convicted of crimes against humanity and executed. Hurrah!
 
Where are the pythons when we need them. There's no prophet here, just a very naughty boy. What did he say? Allahuakbar. Oh, he sneezed. Was that a sign?
 
IMO the film looks rubbish ! As if Alex Jones or David Icke had been visual advisers .....

It's highly reactionary , one-sided and the brain child of an agent provocateur that wants Halal sausages banned from dutch supermarkets ......*Yawn!* :rolleyes:

Doesn't merit the debate and coverage it received !

If you want an interesting take on the subject have a look at the series "The Power of Nightmares" by Adam Curtis


A three part program that makes for excellent sunday viewing ! :cool:
 
lobster;7333326[URL="http://www.reformislam.org/" said:
This[/URL] group being the most prominent
Click to expand...

While there can't be an argument against the fact that Islam got hijacked to serve for people's personal and political goals, I highly doubt origin and intentions of such a website.
They seem, for a start, extremely uninformed about the fact that such hijacking and abuse is not something new. It happened since the very beginning of Islamic history. Their take on historical events and even simply their use of the word "shari'a" is an other clear indication they have no clue.
Naïvely ignorant is even too light to describe this.

salaam.
 
Generally understood by Islamic history is the History of the Islamic World. Technically that starts with the Prophet of Islam but an overview (at least) of the pre-Islamic history of the Arabian peninsula should always be included.
It is also indispensable to pay attention to Persian History, European History, the History of the Byzantine Empire and the History of the Balkan.

salaam.
 
History of Islam is and academic studyfield. What the non-academic knows or learns about it can be correct or it can be coloured by various influences/factors. It all depends on the person and how he wishes to approach the issue.
Of course like in every other academic field consensus is not established about a vast majority of subjects (and in my view never will be).

salaam.
 
Of course, I agree that there is a great deal of argument concerning what is meant by 'Islam'. An obvious example of this would be the historiography that is generally accepted within Muslim communities, and the questioning of this by many scholars - predominantly those from what is often perjoratively described as the 'Orientalist' tradition.

So Ald, is your scholarship based upon and part of the traditional Islamic approach (I use this description advisedly) or otherwise?
 
BlackSpecs said:
It's highly reactionary , one-sided and the brain child of an agent provocateur that wants Halal sausages banned from dutch supermarkets ......*Yawn!* :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Wilders is therefore one of these covert anti-semite because the religious food laws are basically the same for Judaism and Islam. We have to be very aware of this type of anti-semite. An Islamophobe is no friend to Jews.
 
Fictionist said:
So Ald, is your scholarship based upon and part of the traditional Islamic approach (I use this description advisedly) or otherwise?
Click to expand...

I studied Islamic history as part of my univ degrees in the Middle East. Next I went to Europe to get the Western approach (which I already had explored because nobody who approaches the textual history of Al Qur'an can pass Blachère and Nôldeke.)
"Orientalists" were that biased by their background that it all had to fit into their - then common - Christianity influenced (our outright Christian) worldview.

What do you mean exactly by "traditional Islamic"?

salaam.
 
David:Yes, it is quite true that the vast majority of the world's 1 billion odd Muslims DO live outside the confineing parameters of the Mioddle-East. Yet, that is where the faith and culture originated, where its holy sites remain, and it remains the cultural center , the epicenter of the faith.

Lobster:Islamic moderates? Of course they exist both as individuals and as organised movements and yet their numbers are relatively miniscule and they remain subject to extreme violence and threats of violence.

Where are their parades? Demonstrations? In honesty, one really cannot blame them for their lack of activity given that rubber necklaces are still quite common in places like Gaza, and that fatwa are issued now and again. Noone wants to die for what should be, by rational folks, regarded as pure common sense.

"Qu'ran rewritten.": Sorry, that will not happen. The tome is considered the direct Revelation from Allah as directly transmitted to Muhammed, and in it being thus, as perfect and sancrosanct. To even suggest such an act would subject a person to immense violence.

As for films against other faiths, of course they exist , in amny forms and against just about any ideology and yet only Islam attracts such a core following that would deicate their entire lives towards rectifying what they see as a direct assault against what should be their private faith.


Catholics become irate with the DaVinci Code...Jews with the Gibson film (whose title temoporarily escapes me) and yet neither group issues decrees of death aginst people associated with the films. This is something that is regularly occurring anytime a consensus of Muslims finds fault with something whether it be a cartoon or a book...or a film.

Fictionist:Alderberan and his scholoarly pedigree: No offence to either one of you but his doing so strikes me as non-sensical at best. If it is fine with you, that is great.

However, this forum is a place for people to exchange OPINIONS and FACTS. To do either, one need not even hold a GED. To offer that one is an expert in the field at hand seems to be to be a form of dismissiveness.

Dhimmi: Thank you for pointing out that seeminly neo-Nazi connections to that particul;ar poster's opinion and material. I am afraid that after considering the same issue I tend to agree with you.

BlackSpecs:Yet the film touches upon current and very valid issues such as the Qu'ran sactified beating of women, the Ha'dit approved forced clitorectomies and murders.

People tend to say that alot of theese issues pre-date Islam and indeed they are correct yet Islam codified them anbd cemtned them into the consciousness of its followers so that it prevented the natural evolution away from such harsh practises. How many Muslims today live as the original Islamic Bedua do?

Why then do they insist on retaining these harsh parcitses. Judaisim allowed rape as a form of marriage and that ceased to exist when we moved from or semi-nomadic desert enacampents and into evolving stable societies.

The Qu'ran, Ha'dit and other forms of Islamic creed have made these practices deeply entrenched within the culture. To now suggest that perhaps they should be reviwed and reconsidered elicits howls and deth treats. This is reality. It is extremely un Politically Correct and never the less remains the truth.

Alderberan: No offence but linking academia and academic credentials to the matter , in my opinion, will only serve to stifle those who feel under qualified (in their own minds,etc). It will surely make some people wiothhold what might be intriguing thoughts and feelings.

As for your definition of Islamic History...The definition that is so widely accepted as to be virtually universal is the era between the ending of al Jahiliah and the Revelation. Pretty straight forward.
 
Tangent: Just because a person has issues with Islam does not make him or her anti-Jewish. Indeed as you and I both know well there are Jews who hate Muslims and the converse.

What Wilders had issue with, among many others, was the Islamic movement to remove non-Halal foodstuff from shelves. This does not make him anti-Jewish because to my knowledge there has not been a Jewish movement in Holland seeking the same.
 
Aldebaran said:
I studied Islamic history as part of my univ degrees in the Middle East. Next I went to Europe to get the Western approach (which I already had explored because nobody who approaches the textual history of Al Qur'an can pass Blachère and Nôldeke.)
"Orientalists" were that biased by their background that it all had to fit into their - then common - Christianity influenced (our outright Christian) worldview.

What do you mean exactly by "traditional Islamic"?

salaam.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree with you regarding your understanding of the word 'Orientalist' Ald, not all of the scholars that were labelled as such could be classified as 'Christian' in any way whatsoever (although there are notable examples who were - Wansborough for example).

By "traditional Islamic" view (which I acknowledged as being a problemmatic description) I mean the explanations (and the plural is important) which seek to explain the rise of Islam within a specifically Islamic framework -so (for example) the formulation and need to preserve the Koran is explained with reference to Abu Bakr and the battle of Yamama and the questions which arose from such a situation (death of individuals with a memory of the revelation and the recognition that the revelation could be 'lost').

This 'traditional approach' does not make reference to external historical sources (which do exist) which might be valuable in contextualising and understanding the conditions within Arabia in the 7th Century.

I do note, however, your use of the phrase "textual history of the Qur'an".
 
rachamim18 said:
Fictionist:Alderberan and his scholoarly pedigree: No offence to either one of you but his doing so strikes me as non-sensical at best. If it is fine with you, that is great.

However, this forum is a place for people to exchange OPINIONS and FACTS. To do either, one need not even hold a GED. To offer that one is an expert in the field at hand seems to be to be a form of dismissiveness.

Alderberan: No offence but linking academia and academic credentials to the matter , in my opinion, will only serve to stifle those who feel under qualified (in their own minds,etc). It will surely make some people wiothhold what might be intriguing thoughts and feelings.

As for your definition of Islamic History...The definition that is so widely accepted as to be virtually universal is the era between the ending of al Jahiliah and the Revelation. Pretty straight forward.
Click to expand...

Rach,

I am new here so I have 'no axe to grind' in respect of other posters. As I said in my previous post I'm happy to engage with Ald and to make my own judgements regarding any contribution he/she might make.

I would however ask you to consider you usage of the term 'Jahiliya' and Islamic history - your use of that term might be interpreted as indicating that you accept the validity of that inherently culturally biased terminology. Do you think, for example, that Arabs living prior to the emergence of Islam would have recognised and appreciated being described thus? Your use and acceptance of the term might be judged as being indicative of your acceptance of a predominant narrative with no consideration of the possible alternatives.
 
Fictionalist: I look at ever poster as an individual and do not regard past interaction as being determining upon anything, hence my still communicating with most of the posters who are sterotypically critically of me here for my Zionist views.

As for what I think Arabs 1700 years ago would think or feel, no offence, but the question seems ridiculous. History and Science uses terminologyin order to categaorise, not to pigeonhol and belittle people. Jahliya is an accepted term to describe the time prior to Muhammed's seclusion and Revelation.

Would the Arabs of that generation appreciate the term? Who could p[ossibly say but why should it matter at all? It is neither derogatory nor an advantageous term, it just "is."


As for alternatives, at the risk of sounding just like the acdademic dis^ sizing that I just denigrated, I have a 0ppretty good handle on alternative histories and cricism, currently reading ibn Warraq in fact. I would suggest it to most here. If one limite one intake to that which would not be offencive to one or another demographic their intake will be might scant to say the least.
 
Bit of a crap film.

Lasted 17 mins, felt like over an hour.

I've seen better efforts from the Ufology mob, tbh.

0/10
 
Out of curiosity, what oart did you find trite? Aside from his misinterrepation (slightly) of his first quoted Sura (8:60, which is dealing with treatment of ?Infidels during actual war, not Infidels per se), he was dead on in every aspect.

Whether people like his style, or want to believe such a dynamic exists, it is there and it is growing and G-D bless Wilders for having the audacity to cast some more light onto it for those who might otherwise be unaware until it is too late.

I would like to also point out that in Segment #9, the mullah copped his sermon (abouy cutting the throats of any hiding Jews) from the widely accepted and revered theologian al Bukhari, the same bigot whom HAMAS bases so much of their Charter upon. The hatred is real and it does not matter if anyone here choose to accept it or not. If it keeps growing you will have no choice but to face it as some of us alreay have had (to).
 
rachamim18 said:
As for what I think Arabs 1700 years ago would think or feel, no offence, but the question seems ridiculous. History and Science uses terminologyin order to categaorise, not to pigeonhol and belittle people. Jahliya is an accepted term to describe the time prior to Muhammed's seclusion and Revelation.

Would the Arabs of that generation appreciate the term? Who could p[ossibly say but why should it matter at all? It is neither derogatory nor an advantageous term, it just "is."


As for alternatives, at the risk of sounding just like the acdademic dis^ sizing that I just denigrated, I have a 0ppretty good handle on alternative histories and cricism, currently reading ibn Warraq in fact. I would suggest it to most here. If one limite one intake to that which would not be offencive to one or another demographic their intake will be might scant to say the least.
Click to expand...

I disagree with you Rach, the use of the term is not neutral at all and is part of a predominant narrative. It is worth remembering that any such narrative may not be the same as history or historical fact (insofar as such a thing exists) - although it might be part of an attempt to explain history.

Given that you claim to be reading the work of Ibn Warraq (I would be interested in knowing which particular book or collection) I am surprised that your stance regarding the use of the term 'Jahiliya' is to simply accept it as a fact with no further consideration or questioning.

This apparent lack of curiosity is strange.
 
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