16yr old boy shot dead in Stockwell
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PacificOcean
Unhinged User
Citizen66 said:I'm waiting....
OK I was wrong.
It's really the Government forcing black people to mug and smoke crack via some shadowy method - not free choice.
PacificOcean said:
Ooooh, you make me wanna spunk all over town with the depth of your thinking
Yes, you're absolutely right!!! Black people smoke more crack, shoot each other and end up in prison more regularly than their white brothers in south London out of a mere life decision at some point in time!!
LMAO you cock-end!!!
And that's why the Gambia has such a big problem with guns and crack, isn't it?
hahahaha Twat!!Bob said:
So your point is that the problems are caused by government inaction because they believe the voters of Lambeth do not matter to them?
How about another angle, why don't teenage shootings happen in the suburbs? I think we can safely say that it isn't because they are prevented by constant government intervention.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
How do these arise though?jchanning said:
I think it is also worth mentioning, that the vast majority of people I have met living in Lambeth, most of my neighbours being good examples, are decent, honest, caring people. If we are to look to blame external factors for the actions of a few, then you have to seriously ask why the majority are not affected as we live on the same streets, with the same government, the same police and the same basic standard of living.
As a survivor of the holocaust said: "everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way". We are all free to make our own choices about the way we live and behave. Constantly trying to externalize the reasons for kids shooting each other doesn't help to solve the issue.
As a survivor of the holocaust said: "everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way". We are all free to make our own choices about the way we live and behave. Constantly trying to externalize the reasons for kids shooting each other doesn't help to solve the issue.
Citizen66 said:Ooooh, you make me wanna spunk all over town with the depth of your thinking
Yes, you're absolutely right!!! Black people smoke more crack, shoot each other and end up in prison more regularly than their white brothers in south London out of a mere life decision at some point in time!!
LMAO you cock-end!!!
And that's why the Gambia has such a big problem with guns and crack, isn't it?
What an awful and utterly bizarre comment to make. I'm more of a reader than a writer on this forum, but Lord knows I just had to respond to this!
I know for a fact some African countries impose the Death Penalty for drug use and trafficking. Those that don't such as Gambia impose very stiff penalties such as life imprisonment where in the UK you get a slap on the wrist i.e. cannabis, second on its list of dangerous drugs, two levels above cocaine!
Interesting that you pick Gambia, a relatively strict muslim country where Sharia law operates unofficially in many rural areas.
You forget that African countries do not suffer from the negative role model effect where the Pete Doherty's of this world are practically celebrated for their drug addiction and many successful hip-hop artists laud murder and violence.
The flip-side is the situation of well-known fraudsters becoming politicians and business leaders, so the average poor kid on the street is more likely to send you a scam email from the cyber-cafe down the road than sniff glue or whatever.
More importantly, the positive role models aren't over-represented in sports and entertainment, every community has its own (rather less famous) version of Mandela.
I remember growing up in Lagos, and they would show the execution by firing squad of armed robbers and drug dealers and traffickers on TV.
While I am not advocating that we line people up in front of Brixton station and kill them, I can assure you that if we did so, the levels of crime and drug use would drop dramatically -if not as a deterrent, then simply because most of the criminals/crack dealers would be dead.
Interestingly enough, crime levels in Lagos skyrocketed after they stopped showing executions on TV. While correlation doesn't equal causation, feel free to make of that what you will.
Pickpocketing is also more common than mugging. Why? Because you have to be discreet and clever if you steal. If you get caught, you will most likely die by burning tyre at the hands of a lynch mob. People don't ever stand idly by as someone gets attacked in broad daylight unless the criminals are heavily armed in which case they run and hide, but they always come back to help.
So we have 1) capital punishment 2) strict moral codes imposed, often religious and zero tolerance of petty crime 3) positive role models, 4) Strong community spirit and 5) public embarassment all as reasonable deterrents. Let's even leave out the fact that the poorest council estate kid in the UK is financially much better off than all those living on pennies a day in sub-saharan Africa.
How can you then compare the situation in South London in light of all these facts and still think the problem is a (largely) white government that wants to keep black people down? If that isn't delusional, I don't know what is
There are enough examples of African governments prepared to treat their own people like dirt. The situations in Darfur and Zimbabwe are examples that even nursery school kids in the UK are aware of.
The answer to why drug problems and crime are so rife in South London but not in other parts can be found in your very revealing post.
As long as you believe the responsibility of dealing with drugs and crime lies with the government or some other external factor and not with the individual, their families, friends and immediate community, then you will never have the power to deal with it.
This negative attitude also stops those who can help from intervening. The hardest people to help out of a life of crime are those who believe they are "owed" something by their government or their communities. They demoralize you and sap your energy.
Such people are unlikely to want to take responsibility for their lives and make their own way and the younger they fall into this attitude the harder it will be to get them out of it.
What a shame. The fact that you see fit to call someone pointing this out a twat says a lot more about you than it does about any person you choose to insult.
Mind said:What a shame. The fact that you see fit to call someone pointing this out a twat says a lot more about you than it does about any person you choose to insult.
Yours, Bothered from Bognor Regis
I promise to disect your shite at a later moment though when the sun ceases to shine and there's nothing better to do.
Mind said:
Do you honestly believe that US 'black' music like Snoop Dog etc isn't listened to in the Gambia?
If so, you know very little about said country and the majority of your hyperbole is mere conjecture.
You'll find that the tastes in music from young black men in the Gambia isn't much dissimilar to young black men in housing estates in Peckham.
I'm also unaware of Sharia law operating in that country. Are you sure you're not getting confused with Nigeria?
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
I suggest that you know little too. And me.
Orang Utan said:
Well I lived with a girl from there for over a year and a half so I'd like to think I'm not completely in the dark... hence me using that country as an example.
Obviously The point I was making is that social elements and also how society likes to treat black people may have something to do with the disproportionate number of them in prisons.
Or is skin colour a definition of being born criminal? I don't think so.
Yossarian said:Thought you was coming back to tell Mind why she's so wrong about what things are like in Africa, fucko - what with you being the expert and all...
Two quick points.
1) Unless the editor implements a new rule that we wear identity badges on our foreheads, how am I supposed to know the cultural heritage and birth place of every poster that I speak to?
2) Being of European origin myself, does that automatically qualify me to be an authority on all the cultural and historical facts of, say, Yugoslavia?
Because those are the standards you're applying to our mutual friend.
And that's all for now
Citizen66 said:Two quick points.
1) Unless the editor implements a new rule that we wear identity badges on our foreheads, how am I supposed to know the cultural heritage and birth place of every poster that I speak to?
2) Being of European origin myself, does that automatically qualify me to be an authority on all the cultural and historical facts of, say, Yugoslavia?
Because those are the standards you're applying to our mutual friend.
And that's all for now
Hmmm...what a response. Cough :-(
steve indigenou
New Member
A few observations on this issue of gang culture, crime, Africa and South London :
I think a balanced approach combining liberal analysis - people have choices, make choices and have to take responsibility for and be held to account for their choices is, to a certain extent, fair. You cannot insulate people from the consequences of their own actions by saying it was their environment or socialisation (or the government) that made them do it. So for the black community to say it's all the government's fault is to abdicate responsibility for a real crisis of culture within certain sections of their urban youth.
But at the same time you cannot deny the importance of certain environmental factors in shaping the behaviour of young black people (or white youths in other communities for that matter). A severe lack of opportunity and low cultural self esteem have something to do with it surely. Better education and better opportunities for young people, positive direction from role models and community leaders would help steer them in a more positive direction.
I do think there is a problem with black cultural leadership. On the one hand you have role models like 50 Cent, Puff Daddy and so on pushing a very materialistic, aggressive, macho-posturing lifestyle that the kids follow. The commercial media go along with this as it panders to people's base instincts and therefore sells well.
Then you have church leaders who seem to be into pretty fundamentalist interpretations of Christianity that don't seem to be steering their youth in a positive direction either. Many of these Church leaders seem more interested in raking in the cash than preaching true christianity.
Of course the drugs economy has a lot to do with it too. When you can earn several hundred pounds a week selling drugs, the prospect of a minimum wage mc-job has less appeal, particularly if you are an academic underachiever. It's the same with alcohol prohibition in the states and gangsterism there in the 1920s or with Crack today. If the rewards are high enough, people will resort to severe measures to protect markets. Legalisation of all drugs would help with alot, though not all, of the gang violence.
Some people have cited the Gambia, others Nigeria as examples of how things are different. Certainly Nigeria is not a usesful and constructive example of how to police a western, liberal society. Televisation of firing squads is not a realistic solution over here, or mob lynchings either.
I work a lot in Ghana, in some of the poorest urban communities in Accra. Certainly levels of poverty are worse there, though levels of community cohesion are much higher. This is partly due to the prescence of strong male role models in society and at home and domestic discipline is still strong. Elders still command the respect of the youth and neighbours will intervene to break up fights. It's become a cliche to say that many Carribean, particularly Jamaican families, lack a strong father figure and the mothers have problems keeping the young men in line. I have been told by people who know these issues better than me that there are issues dating back to slavery whereby the family structures were deliberately broken up by slave owners and the legacy of this is still seen in the violence and lack of cohesion in urban Jamaican society. There is also a problem with men impregnating women and then not hanging around to bring up their children. Better sex education would help tackle this to a certain extent.
What was said about young people joining gangs for protection and out of fear is also very true. Most of the kids are good kids, but many of them are scared witless and they find security in the gangs.
And as for this issue about not calling a gang a gang.
We regularly have gang fights on our door step in Camberwell which the police tell us are deliberately orchestrated by senior members of the gangs, much in the way that football holigans would arrange fights before games. It seems to me that the psyschology is similar - a primordial need to belong to a group with a clear identity, perhaps filling a gap left by their inability to integrate into wider society.
Getting all simplistic about it certainly won't help and the level and depth of intervention required to solve the problem is far to expensive for this government to stomach. Spending £20billion on updating Trident, £3billion on widening the M6 or however many billion on Iraq is deemed more important.
I do think that the government could do a lot more to support secular, progressive black leaders to speak out more not only about the gangsters but also the negative cultural role models that inspire them. But until the lure of drugs profits is addressed, you're fighting a losing battle.
Steve
I think a balanced approach combining liberal analysis - people have choices, make choices and have to take responsibility for and be held to account for their choices is, to a certain extent, fair. You cannot insulate people from the consequences of their own actions by saying it was their environment or socialisation (or the government) that made them do it. So for the black community to say it's all the government's fault is to abdicate responsibility for a real crisis of culture within certain sections of their urban youth.
But at the same time you cannot deny the importance of certain environmental factors in shaping the behaviour of young black people (or white youths in other communities for that matter). A severe lack of opportunity and low cultural self esteem have something to do with it surely. Better education and better opportunities for young people, positive direction from role models and community leaders would help steer them in a more positive direction.
I do think there is a problem with black cultural leadership. On the one hand you have role models like 50 Cent, Puff Daddy and so on pushing a very materialistic, aggressive, macho-posturing lifestyle that the kids follow. The commercial media go along with this as it panders to people's base instincts and therefore sells well.
Then you have church leaders who seem to be into pretty fundamentalist interpretations of Christianity that don't seem to be steering their youth in a positive direction either. Many of these Church leaders seem more interested in raking in the cash than preaching true christianity.
Of course the drugs economy has a lot to do with it too. When you can earn several hundred pounds a week selling drugs, the prospect of a minimum wage mc-job has less appeal, particularly if you are an academic underachiever. It's the same with alcohol prohibition in the states and gangsterism there in the 1920s or with Crack today. If the rewards are high enough, people will resort to severe measures to protect markets. Legalisation of all drugs would help with alot, though not all, of the gang violence.
Some people have cited the Gambia, others Nigeria as examples of how things are different. Certainly Nigeria is not a usesful and constructive example of how to police a western, liberal society. Televisation of firing squads is not a realistic solution over here, or mob lynchings either.
I work a lot in Ghana, in some of the poorest urban communities in Accra. Certainly levels of poverty are worse there, though levels of community cohesion are much higher. This is partly due to the prescence of strong male role models in society and at home and domestic discipline is still strong. Elders still command the respect of the youth and neighbours will intervene to break up fights. It's become a cliche to say that many Carribean, particularly Jamaican families, lack a strong father figure and the mothers have problems keeping the young men in line. I have been told by people who know these issues better than me that there are issues dating back to slavery whereby the family structures were deliberately broken up by slave owners and the legacy of this is still seen in the violence and lack of cohesion in urban Jamaican society. There is also a problem with men impregnating women and then not hanging around to bring up their children. Better sex education would help tackle this to a certain extent.
What was said about young people joining gangs for protection and out of fear is also very true. Most of the kids are good kids, but many of them are scared witless and they find security in the gangs.
And as for this issue about not calling a gang a gang.
We regularly have gang fights on our door step in Camberwell which the police tell us are deliberately orchestrated by senior members of the gangs, much in the way that football holigans would arrange fights before games. It seems to me that the psyschology is similar - a primordial need to belong to a group with a clear identity, perhaps filling a gap left by their inability to integrate into wider society.
Getting all simplistic about it certainly won't help and the level and depth of intervention required to solve the problem is far to expensive for this government to stomach. Spending £20billion on updating Trident, £3billion on widening the M6 or however many billion on Iraq is deemed more important.
I do think that the government could do a lot more to support secular, progressive black leaders to speak out more not only about the gangsters but also the negative cultural role models that inspire them. But until the lure of drugs profits is addressed, you're fighting a losing battle.
Steve
Yossarian said:When a person says things like "I remember growing up in Lagos", it's sometimes possible to take a wild stab at guessing what part of the world that person might hail from, Brainiac...
Oh I seeeeeeeeeeeeee... silly me, gee I'm so stoopid!!!
So on one side of the coin we have regulars like cheesypoof who expresses having a condition called synthesia and yet a fair number of long-standing posters relentlessly accuse her of feigning it in order to gain attention. Then on the other side of the coin you're willing to swallow every word of a 6-post wonder because it happens to fall in line with your agenda to get some little digs in?
Growing up in Lagos doesn't automatically make you an authority on the cultural elements of inner city Banjul and a man as well travelled as yourself knows fine well that Africa is a continent and not a country.
Citizen66 said:
I am not being simplistic.
I was just pointing out that somehow blaming the current situation on some weird conspiracy is rubbish. No-one has to get into smoking crack, or selling it. There is no reason at all why any particular race or skin colour should me more prone to do so than any other that I can see.
Giles..
steve indigenou
New Member
Giles,
race is a component here I think. You only have to observe that most, if not all, of the young men who are vicitms of perpetrators of this kind of gang violence are black to conclude that race is an issue.
Why ?
Because certain social factors such as poverty, fragmented families, low aspirations, lack of strong fathers etc seem to be affecting the black community more than other communities. But even within the Black community, you have to be careful not to generalise. Some black communities, such as the Ghanaian one, have a greater level of cohesion than say the Jamaican one, meaning that Ghanaian youth are less likely to fall into crime.
It comes down to the nature of choice. Do you really think that the same choices that are open to you, with your family background, education and culture are open to Jamaican youth living in Stockwell or Brixton ?
Giving some thought to why these kids make the choices they do would be helpful. And what can be done to encourage them to make better choices.
Steve
race is a component here I think. You only have to observe that most, if not all, of the young men who are vicitms of perpetrators of this kind of gang violence are black to conclude that race is an issue.
Why ?
Because certain social factors such as poverty, fragmented families, low aspirations, lack of strong fathers etc seem to be affecting the black community more than other communities. But even within the Black community, you have to be careful not to generalise. Some black communities, such as the Ghanaian one, have a greater level of cohesion than say the Jamaican one, meaning that Ghanaian youth are less likely to fall into crime.
It comes down to the nature of choice. Do you really think that the same choices that are open to you, with your family background, education and culture are open to Jamaican youth living in Stockwell or Brixton ?
Giving some thought to why these kids make the choices they do would be helpful. And what can be done to encourage them to make better choices.
Steve
PacificOcean
Unhinged User
steve indigenou said:
I am white and grew up very poor in Clapham (years before it became trendy). I made something of myself as did someone I grew up with who was black and poor and who now works for an investment bank.
We are lucky that in this country that you can make something of yourself if you want to - you just need to apply yourself.
steve indigenou said:
Steve
I know that race is clearly an issue here, and the different cultures that either encourage or discourage a drift into crime and violence. I am not disagreeing with you on any of this.
What I was disagreeing with is the belief among some in the black community that there is some sort of bizarre conspiracy on the part of "the government" that in some way forces them into crime / drugs / whatever (as referred to in post number 52 of this thread). That's all.
You are what you do, is my opinion.
Giles..
Christ, if PO thinks that his well dressed religious school is typical of the comprehensives that most black youths go to around here, then he's really fooling himself. Simply by going to that school more opportunites were likely to have opened up to him and his friend. Sadly, there's not the same culture of learning and achievement in many of Lambeth's schools - it's possible to succeed, but you'd have to work harder and set yourself apart in some ways.
PacificOcean
Unhinged User
tarannau said:
eh?
Salesian was a crummy state school when I went. It's now grant maintained but it's still a shit hole. We gained no special opportunites going there. Also, I went to St. Francis Sixth Form after Salesian which is a mix of all secondarys in Lambeth and some from Wandsworth. So for sixth form I was in with students from the Lambeth comps you describe and there was lots of black kids doing A-Levels - they seemed to manage it.
And I hardly think those hideous maroon blazers made us well dressed.
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