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Why do peoples not understand that immigration is currently based on 'pull'?

Right. I've just come back from sorting out lunch. Lets just get one thing straight. No nino, I don't like your posting style, mainly because of your belief that you can attack people but boy, do you complain ad nauseum if people do it to you, to the extent that was was a time I had to have you on ignore just to stop your sodding aggressive PMs. I also do not like the fact that you think that you are the only person on the planet with a correct opinion (unless of course people agree with your every utterance) and your belief that you are the only person who's ever factually correct. I'm not talking about this thread, I'm talking about your posting history generally.
Now apparently I've got it in for you because you say you're black. First I'd heard of it. Just because you've named yourself after a pseudo-psychic, don't assume I have the power of clairvoyance. I don't base my dislike of people on their creed or race, I just don't like you because you're a twat and a right pain in the arse.
 
Initially I thought nino_savatte over-reacted to your pot/kettle comment Mrs M, but if you consider that the term "sooty" has been used as a derogatory, racist term towards black people in the past, then nino_savatte's reaction could be seen as understandable, but misplaced in this instant.

Was the ban a well thought out considered response do you think?
 
Mrs Magpie said:
Right. I've just come back from sorting out lunch. Lets just get one thing straight. No nino, I don't like your posting style, mainly because of your belief that you can attack people but boy, do you complain ad nauseum if people do it to you, to the extent that was was a time I had to have you on ignore just to stop your sodding aggressive PMs.
Click to expand...

I like to think that most on here will treat others better than they expect to be treated themselves. We should be capable of absorbing the occasional twit who treats others worse than they expect to be treated themselves.
 
nino_savatte said:
So blame the architects of the neo-liberal project. Why do you (and those who support your contentions) constantly lay the blame at the doorstep of immigrants? Please don't say that you don't; you and baldwin always use similar titles for your threads which gives most casual readers the impression that you either hate or blame immigrants for whatever economic malaise befalls the country.
Click to expand...

if you bothered to EVER EVER read peoples posts ( must admit i missed this one!) you will notice that neither i nor tb nor anyone else i have seen ' .. lay the blame at the doorstep of immigrants .. '

.. where on earth do you get this rubbish from????

.. from the off and my first thread ( immigration part of thatcherism) i have consistently argued that yes neo liberalism is the problem in this country .. the debate is about WHERE immigration fits into that!!! capisce?? i ague that the current neo lib agenda could not be doen without this immigration .. ok??
 
bluestreak said:
says mr single issue.
Click to expand...

Hey, if you can't argue your point sufficiently well then bringing up irrelevant crap about postcounts is a good fallback. :)

Kind of separates the adults from the children, does that!

(totters off to use Urban's search engine to compile list of people who make irrelevant comments about postcounts in lieu of being able to support their position) :D :D
 
ViolentPanda said:
Hey, if you can't argue your point sufficiently well then bringing up irrelevant crap about postcounts is a good fallback. :)

Kind of separates the adults from the children, does that!

(totters off to use Urban's search engine to compile list of people who make irrelevant comments about postcounts in lieu of being able to support their position) :D :D
Click to expand...

quality not quantity dear .. personally i don't trust anyone whose got over 20k counts .. suggests they need better 'outlet' in their life ..

p.s. what point have not argued well? that immigration is part of neoliberalism??
 
This thread is just pure bunfight now, there's no content at all. Whether this represents nadir or apogee is impossible to tell.
 
durruti02 said:
quality not quantity dear .. personally i don't trust anyone whose got over 20k counts .. suggests they need better 'outlet' in their life ..
Click to expand...
1) "Quality" and your posts are two separate things, never the twain shall meet.
2) Comments about postcounts "suggests" that you've got nothing better in your armoury than bitching. As usual.
3) I don't give a monkey's dick whether you "trust" me. Your trust is irrelevant. Me, I don't trust people who haven't been able to coherently (please take note of that word) explain their position in a tad under two thousand posts. :)
p.s. what point have not argued well? that immigration is part of neoliberalism??
Click to expand...
Wow, you're quick tonight.
 
ViolentPanda said:
1) "Quality" and your posts are two separate things, never the twain shall meet.
2) Comments about postcounts "suggests" that you've got nothing better in your armoury than bitching. As usual.
3) I don't give a monkey's dick whether you "trust" me. Your trust is irrelevant. Me, I don't trust people who haven't been able to coherently (please take note of that word) explain their position in a tad under two thousand posts. :)

Wow, you're quick tonight.
Click to expand...

but against all the evidence it is you who need to come up with something mate

we have
1) a desperately weakened workforce
2) wages going down or not going up, in low wage area ( where i work) and clearly identifiable with immigration
3) a serious rise in anti immigrant propaganda
4) a serious rise in the BNP etc

so really ( and of course i know how thatcherism has weakened us in MANY other ways) it is up to you to show that immigration has no effect

oops wrong thread .. this is about the pull thing

ditto though

i have said to you that we have supposedly closed borders both in the UK and USA yet there are , in both, millions of workers coming through as part of the spivs, who run this country's, low wage economy .. you have yet not come up with a single thing to say why they would come here IF there was NO work available ..
 
durruti02 said:
if you bothered to EVER EVER read peoples posts ( must admit i missed this one!) you will notice that neither i nor tb nor anyone else i have seen ' .. lay the blame at the doorstep of immigrants .. '

.. where on earth do you get this rubbish from????

.. from the off and my first thread ( immigration part of thatcherism) i have consistently argued that yes neo liberalism is the problem in this country .. the debate is about WHERE immigration fits into that!!! capisce?? i ague that the current neo lib agenda could not be doen without this immigration .. ok??
Click to expand...


That's a little rich coming from someone who cannot be arsed to read any post that doesn't conform to his contours.

You support immigration controls and immigration controls are racist.
 
Mrs Magpie said:
Right. I've just come back from sorting out lunch. Lets just get one thing straight. No nino, I don't like your posting style, mainly because of your belief that you can attack people but boy, do you complain ad nauseum if people do it to you, to the extent that was was a time I had to have you on ignore just to stop your sodding aggressive PMs. I also do not like the fact that you think that you are the only person on the planet with a correct opinion (unless of course people agree with your every utterance) and your belief that you are the only person who's ever factually correct. I'm not talking about this thread, I'm talking about your posting history generally.
Now apparently I've got it in for you because you say you're black. First I'd heard of it. Just because you've named yourself after a pseudo-psychic, don't assume I have the power of clairvoyance. I don't base my dislike of people on their creed or race, I just don't like you because you're a twat and a right pain in the arse.
Click to expand...

I don't like your biased approach to moderation, so we're even. You've not even bothered to read this thread, you just took sides with someone who already shared your antipathy of me. You're pathetic.

This rather sums you up.

I also do not like the fact that you think that you are the only person on the planet with a correct opinion
Click to expand...

Which means what, precisely? All you've done is to mimic beckyp and her mates. This is the sort of thing I expect from someone who is not only inarticulate but who feels threatened by someone who has actually done some reading.

Hey but no one could ever accuse you of repeating yourself -eh?

and your belief that you are the only person who's ever factually correct.
Click to expand...

Really? Where have I ever made such a claim? Please find a post that supports your contention. You won't find one.

Then there's this:

I've got it in for you because you say you're black. First I'd heard of it.
Click to expand...

Do you think that I'm making it up? I'd say this really sums up your antipathy towards me. This also sums up the fact that you don't know anything about me other than what your pals tell you. You're a joke.

Over to you, Mrs Perfect.
 
durruti02 said:
whatever :rolleyes: .. maybe actually look at the threads i've started ..
Click to expand...

That's a typically weak counter argument. We all look at your posts. The trouble with your posts on this topic, is that your ideas are badly thought out and tend to be generally supportive of the status quo. Furthermore, you appear to have some trouble identifying these "economic migrants" that you you speak of. Are they from Eastern Europe or what?
 
nino_savatte said:
That's a little rich coming from someone who cannot be arsed to read any post that doesn't conform to his contours.

You support immigration controls and immigration controls are racist.
Click to expand...
:eek:

You keep saying things like that over and over again. But immigration controls are supported by most people for practical not racist reasons.
I have never read anything by durruti or others that you seem to dislike that is racist.
You seem to imagine that you are some great authority on subconcious racism.:D
 
becky p said:
:eek:

You keep saying things like that over and over again. But immigration controls are supported by most people for practical not racist reasons.
I have never read anything by durruti or others that you seem to dislike that is racist.
You seem to imagine that you are some great authority on subconcious racism.:D
Click to expand...

You have no evidence that "most" people support your ideas.

Oh and please stop personalising this. It isn't about "liking" or "disliking" anyone; that's a very juvenile way to frame this entire argument.

You seem to be making far too many presumptions for your own good. Like you do here:

You seem to imagine that you are some great authority on subconcious racism.
Click to expand...

This is the sort of thing that I'd expect a 12 year old to say. :rolleyes:
 
Pull? My arse.

It's interesting how none of the anti-immigrationists have ever mentioned imperialism or slavery.

The world is divided into oppressed and oppressor countries; a tiny handful of imperialist countries completely dominate, exploit and impoverish numerous underdeveloped countries. The price for this domination is paid by the masses in these countries, who are condemned to starvation, unemployment and brutal exploitation, while the imperialist amass unprecedented wealth in their drive for more and more profit.

British imperialism was the first, the trail blazer for imperialism long before the rise of its European and US rivals, and today is second only to US imperialism. A racist ideology was also developed to try to justify the barbaric treatment of the oppressed peoples by colonialism and imperialism. This worldwide carnage and exploitation by British imperialism is the basis for racism in Britain today.

Racism is the systematic oppression of the indigenous population of the countries conquered and exploited by imperialism in the first place. Racism and imperialism are inseparable. So having underdeveloped these oppressed countries, and supported dictatorships, imperialism creates the conditions (massive unemployment, poverty, repression, torture, lack of health care, illiteracy, etc.) where people are faced with a choice between staying in their countries and barely subsisting and starving to death or migrating to the imperialist nations in search of work and a better life. It doesn’t matter what the particular immediate reasons are for their migration, at the root of it, is the desire to escape the consequences of imperialism.
http://www.asylum-seekers-defence.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Britain's_racist_immigration_controls
Click to expand...
 
becky p said:
:eek:

You keep saying things like that over and over again. But immigration controls are supported by most people for practical not racist reasons.
I have never read anything by durruti or others that you seem to dislike that is racist.
You seem to imagine that you are some great authority on subconcious racism.:D
Click to expand...

Thing is that durruti02 etc post screeds about controls, but never detailed screeds, never about how they'd achieve their aims, never about how such ideas could be sold politically, never about how hard border controls would be, or about how they'd make sure that refugees (who we have an international obligation to in terms of giving sanctuary) would be protected from over-harsh application of border controls.

It isn't enough to just preach that something must be done, just like it isn't enough to just tell everyone you're a socialist or an internationalist. You need to be able to articulate how you'll do it too, or else you just come across like the bloke in the pub with the Union Jack tattoo with "Millwall" in the middle of it.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Thing is that durruti02 etc post screeds about controls, but never detailed screeds, never about how they'd achieve their aims, never about how such ideas could be sold politically, never about how hard border controls would be, or about how they'd make sure that refugees (who we have an international obligation to in terms of giving sanctuary) would be protected from over-harsh application of border controls.

It isn't enough to just preach that something must be done, just like it isn't enough to just tell everyone you're a socialist or an internationalist. You need to be able to articulate how you'll do it too, or else you just come across like the bloke in the pub with the Union Jack tattoo with "Millwall" in the middle of it.
Click to expand...

Aye and durutti, baldwin and beckyp will always harp on about how a "majority" of people share their views but never seem willing to produce and figures. Odd that.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Thing is that durruti02 etc post screeds about controls, but never detailed screeds, never about how they'd achieve their aims, never about how such ideas could be sold politically, never about how hard border controls would be, or about how they'd make sure that refugees (who we have an international obligation to in terms of giving sanctuary) would be protected from over-harsh application of border controls.
Click to expand...

Could we just clear this up. As far as I am aware, durrutti has never called for immigration controls and has never supported (verbally or otherwise) border controls of any type. Almost all the discussion has involved trade union closed shop and grassroots community organisation.

If you think that failing to call for open borders is the same as supporting immigration controls then you think that failing to support free trade is the same as supporting protectionism.

Incidently I would recommend everyone whose interested read the article for the IRR that nino sited. It pretty much covers the same ground that was covered on these boards a few years ago, but then the level of political debate was much better back then.
http://www.irr.org.uk/2001/september/ak000001.html
 
Knotted said:
Could we just clear this up. As far as I am aware, durrutti has never called for immigration controls and has never supported (verbally or otherwise) border controls of any type. Almost all the discussion has involved trade union closed shop and grassroots community organisation.
Click to expand...
He may not be stupid enough to come out and say that he wants different controls from what are currently in place, but whenever his mate tbaldwin has a moan on the subject he comes along for a moan too.
If you think that failing to call for open borders is the same as supporting immigration controls then you think that failing to support free trade is the same as supporting protectionism.
Click to expand...
I don't think anything of the sort.
 
ViolentPanda said:
He may not be stupid enough to come out and say that he wants different controls from what are currently in place, but whenever his mate tbaldwin has a moan on the subject he comes along for a moan too.
Click to expand...

So you would prefer to debate with what you think somebody else thinks but does not say? In that case I shall leave you to play with your strawmen.
 
nino_savatte said:
That's a little rich coming from someone who cannot be arsed to read any post that doesn't conform to his contours.

You support immigration controls and immigration controls are racist.
Click to expand...

you really are quite slow mate .. if you read what people write you would KNOW that, unlike some on here who DO support an increase in immigration control to protect workers,

wait for it


i do not!

i have consistently argued ( and this is the point of this thread too) that as the controling factor in immigration is the PULL, then logical if we wanted to slow or stop immirgation it woudl be done by removing the cause .. i.e. spivs and cowboy employers

honestly if you haven't worked this out it is hard to argue with you as you are so off the game ..
 
nino_savatte said:
That's a typically weak counter argument. We all look at your posts. The trouble with your posts on this topic, is that your ideas are badly thought out and tend to be generally supportive of the status quo. Furthermore, you appear to have some trouble identifying these "economic migrants" that you you speak of. Are they from Eastern Europe or what?
Click to expand...

"generally supportive of the status quo" .. are you totally thick????

my whole point of these threads has been about how neoliberalism has attacked/hamstrung the w/c (and how immigration has been used as a tool in this process) and therefore how in a period of unbelievable weakness (unbelievable even from what was called the 'downturn' of the early 8ts) to recreate resisitance/power in the w/c ..
 
nino_savatte said:
It's interesting how none of the anti-immigrationists have ever mentioned imperialism or slavery.
Click to expand...

god you get worse .. i am an absolute anti -imperialist and was active in anti -imp groups years ago ..

what you don't get is we are now in a period of neo liberalism where capital both shifts ( pulls) workers for cheap labour or moves its factories to find cheaper labour .. can you not see this ? are you blind???

it is the modern slavery .. families broken for capital ..

also you have NOT picked up how this is being used to stir racism have you .. noticed how the bnp are doing??

try reading what marx said 130 years ago about how the bosses use immigration not only to attack wages BUT to foster division and racsim .. i seem to remember doing a thread on it which totally confused you wiberals
 
ViolentPanda said:
Thing is that durruti02 etc post screeds about controls, but never detailed screeds, never about how they'd achieve their aims, never about how such ideas could be sold politically, never about how hard border controls would be, or about how they'd make sure that refugees (who we have an international obligation to in terms of giving sanctuary) would be protected from over-harsh application of border controls.

It isn't enough to just preach that something must be done, just like it isn't enough to just tell everyone you're a socialist or an internationalist. You need to be able to articulate how you'll do it too, or else you just come across like the bloke in the pub with the Union Jack tattoo with "Millwall" in the middle of it.
Click to expand...

don't be dishonest now VP ;)


.. you know full well i gave a full page months ago ( and repeated on a number of occassions ) about real practical working class ways of dealing with this issue.. i even pmed you .. involving pickets of agencies .. campaigns for local employment etc etc

you also know full well i do not support immigration control ...

and that i support fully community support for refugees ..

why the dishonesty mate?

p.s what wrong with millwall and jack tats .. not to my taste but i's have a dragon .. know some totally sound blokes as you describe ..
 
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