Israel pre-emptively murder more Gaza kids

Tanks pounded Gaza again last night, just in case they were tempted to fire more rockets.

19 dead, including children.

UN says fuck all so far.

Israeli PM "expresses regret".



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6127250.stm

Didn't Herod express regret, later like ?

There just statistics now who really cares. There lives are worthless, I mean if an Israeli kid had been shot by Palestinian gunmen then that would be headline stuff but Arab kids and women? no we don't want to know.

But hmmmmmmm we do wonder why muslims around the world feel they are being persecuted and some extremists even want to blow up western targets and interests and also call for an end to the TERRORIST state of Israel.

diego said:

There just statistics now who really cares. There lives are worthless, I mean if an Israeli kid had been shot by Palestinian gunmen then that would be headline stuff but Arab kids and women? no we don't want to know.

But hmmmmmmm we do wonder why muslims around the world feel they are being persecuted and some extremists even want to blow up western targets and interests and also call for an end to the TERRORIST state of Israel.

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I don't know about "don't want to know". It was headline news this morning here in the UK on both BBC and Sky, complete with horrific pictures, and a fairly lame Israeli spokeswoman trying to justify it.....

Giles..

diego said:

There just statistics now who really cares. There lives are worthless, I mean if an Israeli kid had been shot by Palestinian gunmen then that would be headline stuff but Arab kids and women? no we don't want to know.

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I am not really sure whether we want to know or not but I do know what makes me angry is when I am told but feel completely powerless to do anything about it and I also have no confidence that our own leaders know any better what to do about it.

The people on the ground there are the people that have to solve the dispute / conflict but they seem hell bent on keeping it going forever.

If that actually is the case, they will continue fighting and we will continue not to do anything about it, then perhaps I do not want to hear about it anymore, after all there are lots of violent places in the world that we do not hear about and even massacres that never make it into UK news.

Actually, Israel left Beit Hanoun late last night local time. Guess what though? A little over an ho9ur after the last Israeli left, Qassams once again were being launched from said locale. It is beyond ironic that people would sound so indignant that Israel would ever deign to enter Gaza, after being assaulted endlessly by missiles.


What if say Scotland , with aspirations of an indeopendant homelnd, began sending human bombs into English cities? What if [and I hope that kind Scots everywhere will forgive my comparison to such inhumane people] Scots were to haphazrdly begin to launch missiles into England? Should Israel then just sit back and absorb whatever losses it incurs ? should Israel live in perpetual victimhood? See, the only way out ofthis round-about argument is if one party owns up to beliving that Israel has no right exist in the first place. If instead, as I do, they believe that Israel DOES have the right to exist...then they must also allow for valid self defense...even when handled in a proactive manner.

Murder is a crime that requires premeditation, or at the very least a modicum of forethought. The IDF does not have, nor has it ever had, a policy of aiming for non-combatants. In fact, most cases where Arab non-combatants [and the occaisonal foreigner] are shot, there is absolutely no conclusive proof that Israel was the culprit.

Said to say PK, Gazans were not "tempted to fire more rockets," they absolutely did so as I posted above. Israel is a legal entity with all the legal rights of self defence. That you root for one side or another is neither here nor there. However, if you are a rational adult, how could you accuse an entire nation or army of such a crime [as murder]?

It is so, so sad that innocent children and others must die, but the fault lies not with Israel or its agents, but rather with the terrorists who assault Israel day after day. They complained of a fictitious "Occupation" and then Israel cedes Gaza to them. Home to almost 2 million Arabs it is in fact a fine place to start if they axctualloy were concerned with establishing a national home and freeing their constituients from everlasting misery. Sadly, instead, militants have turned Gaza into a pre-Kharzai Afghanistan.

Smuggling has not only continued unabated but actually increased a great deal. Not only did the militants fire at Israeli children as Israel evacuated the last of theri citizens from Gaza, they have almost daily [and certainly on a daily babsis for the last 2 months] launched their deadly Qassams into Israel Proper. Where is the indignation for hose crimes PK?

When you continually slap someone in the face , mostly without reprucussions, do not act suprised when yuou see the hand coming in your direction.

rachamim18 said:

It is so, so sad that innocent children and others must die, but the fault lies not with Israel or its agents, but rather with the terrorists who assault Israel day after day. They complained of a fictitious "Occupation" and then Israel cedes Gaza to them. Home to almost 2 million Arabs it is in fact a fine place to start if they axctualloy were concerned with establishing a national home and freeing their constituients from everlasting misery. Sadly, instead, militants have turned Gaza into a pre-Kharzai Afghanistan.

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rachamim18 you appear to have the view that the conflict is completely the fault of your enemy and that Israel has done or is doing nothing at all wrong itself.

I just do not believe that. sorry.

Diego: Please. Are you seriously trying to suggest that the UK media does not show photos and footage of injured and dead "PAlestinians" whenever a death occurs? Are you rationally trying to declare that the Guardian, BBC, and ITV do not rip Israel to shreds , with glee, given the chance? Propaganda is NOT in short supply anywhere in the world.


The " terrorist State of Israel?" Please do tell us where you find your reasoning. HAMAS, the entity currently in control of the "Palestinian" path to nationhood, has a Charter that calls for the death of EVERY JEW IN THE WORLD...not to mention the total destruction of Israel, etc., etc. PIJ comes in a close second. In fact, there at leaast 26 different terrorist organisations operating within PA controlled lands. What terrorism dioes Israel commit? There more than 400 Israelis of all ages sitting in Israeli prisons due to Israel's stringent hate law. Some merely agitated for an expulsion of non-citizen Arabs from Israel Proper. Does not sound to me like Israel is guilty of anything of the sort, of course if you have a rationale [and I doubt it goes anything past ill informed propaganda] I would love to hear it.

Giles: If the subject matter were not so deadly serious, the irony of your post would cause me to chuckle. Diego above you complains that "PAlestinians" are just not getting a fair shake in your country's media [or so he implies] but then you immediately follow with how sickened you were by pictures in your nation's media that portray Israel in a brutal, heartless manner. Were Israel truly a terrorist state, you could bet you bottom Euro that it would not issue permits for foreign press to traipse about contested areas snapping photos. One does not see anywhere near the amount of converage from say colombo...or Grozny...or anywhere for that matter. Israel's transparency speaks volumes actually but people like you and Diego fail to see what is in front of you.

Weltweit: On the contrary, Israel has made pkenty of mistakes and has certainly aggravated the situation. Nothing, anywhere at anytime is EVER merely blacn and white. However, neither is Israel the pulp villain. Israel is a sovereign nation with all the rights and responsibilities that this entails. HAMAS, the chief opposition, is fully and publicly committed to the extermination of every Jew in the world. Even if one were to subtract the daily assaults emanating from Gaza, Israel would still be the moral better.

rachamin - you're just like one of those nazi war crime apologists - see no evil, hear no evil, it was hitlers fault for making them join the SS... etc.

Israel seeking a peaceful 2 state solution?

Don't make me laugh.

what pk said.

PK: To accuse a Jew of being [like] a member of the Nazis is disgusting and shows the lack of reasoning in your opinion. Cannot find facts? Just make an ad hom attack.

Israel h-as been seeking a 2 State Solution for decades [behind closed doors]. Since Kadimah took the reins of national power, it has become the most vital interest of the Israeli Govwernment. Tell me PK, have you read the Kadimah Charter?

rachamim18 said:

PK: To accuse a Jew of being [like] a member of the Nazis is disgusting ..

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If the shoe fits...

PK makes a salient point.

The oppressed has become the oppressor.

Zionism was outlawed as a racist movement during the 1970s. It's time it was classified as a terrorist doctrine.

Report on Newsnight (BBC2) right now.

I have been reliably informed that artillery (tanks firing amongst other things) is totally indiscriminate.

This was not targetting the people that were shooting rockets, it was targetting a civilian area, the result of which is predictable.

Pete the Greek said:

PK makes a salient point.

The oppressed has become the oppressor.

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What he (and PK said).

rachamim18 said:

PK: To accuse a Jew of being [like] a member of the Nazis is disgusting

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To stick your fingers in your ears and go 'la la la la la' when your country ruthlessly murders innocent civilians pretty much disgusts me as well you ignorant fucking pig.

rachamim18 said:

Actually, Israel left Beit Hanoun late last night local time. Guess what though? A little over an ho9ur after the last Israeli left, Qassams once again were being launched from said locale. It is beyond ironic that people would sound so indignant that Israel would ever deign to enter Gaza, after being assaulted endlessly by missiles.<snip>
When you continually slap someone in the face , mostly without reprucussions, do not act suprised when yuou see the hand coming in your direction.

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John Dugard, the UN special investigator on human rights in the Palestinian territories, called on the Security Council to take action over these killings. Mr Dugard, who is well known for his outspoken position on Gaza, said the quartet of the US, Russia, the EU and the UN, who are in charge of the roadmap peace plan in the Middle East, had done little to stop Israel's attacks, which he described as a brutal collective punishment of a people.

Israeli scholar Tanya Reinhart has pointed out that, "in Israeli discourse, Israel is always presented as the side exercising restraint in its conflict with the Palestinians." Reinhart reminds us that until Israel's Gaza beach party massacre on June 9, Hamas had maintained a 17-month ceasefire and that "other organisations have generally succeeded in launching only a few isolated Qassams".

And as for the "daily barrage of Palestinian rocket fire into Israel", UK reporter Donald Macintyre wrote in The Independent (June 23, 2006), "Almost three times as many Palestinian civilians have been killed in Gaza in the past nine days as Israeli civilians in Sderot killed by Qassam rockets in the past five years".

weltweit said:

If that actually is the case, they will continue fighting and we will continue not to do anything about it, then perhaps I do not want to hear about it anymore, after all there are lots of violent places in the world that we do not hear about and even massacres that never make it into UK news.

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But 'we' (the UK) are doing somehting about it.

We are actively supporting Israel in its bloody oppression of the people of palastine.

rachamim18 said:

PK: To accuse a Jew of being [like] a member of the Nazis is disgusting

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Why?

You are a racist seeking lebensraum and denying the humanity of the folks you drive from their homes to make room for your chosen people. If you talk like a Nazi, and act like a Nazi, then you can expect to be called out as a Nazi.

You think just because of your religion you shouldn't be called out for your racist politics?

That's nuts.

rachamim18 said:

PK: To accuse a Jew of being [like] a member of the Nazis is disgusting

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I think you are disgusting, and certainly as nonchalant as any Nazi in the face of what is clearly becoming a mass murder of holocaust proportions.

Fuck you, and fuck your country, it's being built on the blood of innocent kids.

rachamim18 said:

Diego: Please. Are you seriously trying to suggest that the UK media does not show photos and footage of injured and dead "PAlestinians" whenever a death occurs? Are you rationally trying to declare that the Guardian, BBC, and ITV do not rip Israel to shreds , with glee, given the chance? Propaganda is NOT in short supply anywhere in the world.


The " terrorist State of Israel?" Please do tell us where you find your reasoning. HAMAS, the entity currently in control of the "Palestinian" path to nationhood, has a Charter that calls for the death of EVERY JEW IN THE WORLD...not to mention the total destruction of Israel, etc., etc. PIJ comes in a close second. In fact, there at leaast 26 different terrorist organisations operating within PA controlled lands. What terrorism dioes Israel commit? There more than 400 Israelis of all ages sitting in Israeli prisons due to Israel's stringent hate law. Some merely agitated for an expulsion of non-citizen Arabs from Israel Proper. Does not sound to me like Israel is guilty of anything of the sort, of course if you have a rationale [and I doubt it goes anything past ill informed propaganda] I would love to hear it.

Giles: If the subject matter were not so deadly serious, the irony of your post would cause me to chuckle. Diego above you complains that "PAlestinians" are just not getting a fair shake in your country's media [or so he implies] but then you immediately follow with how sickened you were by pictures in your nation's media that portray Israel in a brutal, heartless manner. Were Israel truly a terrorist state, you could bet you bottom Euro that it would not issue permits for foreign press to traipse about contested areas snapping photos. One does not see anywhere near the amount of converage from say colombo...or Grozny...or anywhere for that matter. Israel's transparency speaks volumes actually but people like you and Diego fail to see what is in front of you.

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Firstly if you cannot see why Israel is regarded as a terrorist state by many around the world then you’re pretty fucked. And whilst I did not mention that Hamas is not a terrorist organisation they just like the Israeli government are a democratically elected government, something people like you and other Zionist supporters around the world find very hard to swallow indeed.

Secondly the latest terrorist atrocity committed by Israel was third on both Sky news and the BBC. Normally Palestinian suicide bombings make it to the top.

Israel’s transparency? What exactly do you mean by that, like their failure to admit how much nuclear arsenal they have, or perhaps how they let journalists in and then shoot them in the head.

Israel is a nasty fucking regime that does not represent the views of most decent jews in that country and around the world. It is the likes of this regime and its supporters that groups like Hamas call for an end too. People like you try to misquote and present false information to try and win support for your own terrorist acts.

weltweit said:

rachamim18 you appear to have the view that the conflict is completely the fault of your enemy and that Israel has done or is doing nothing at all wrong itself.
I just do not believe that. sorry.

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I don't believe it either but I understand why he says it. He faces a threat and to him everyone seems to be ignorant of it. If a Muslim fires a bullet at a Jew it tends to go without comment here, should that Jew fire back it gets mentioned. It's all well and good to reveal double standards, but not if it means producing a new one.

I think that "an eye for an eye" is the operating thinking on both sides though if you read the human rights websites it seems there are a lot more deaths on the Palestinian side of the conflict.

How they both get from "an eye for an eye" to "turn the other cheek" is the interesting question to me and not one that it seems many people in the real world or even in this forum are contemplating.

[I did actually propose a solution on another board some time ago but it is idealist and quite mad, if anyone wants to hear it let me know.]

It really doesn't work like that though. It's not the firing upon Muslims that people here try to bring into focus. It's the firing upon civilians. I don't give a shit if Israel kills some Palestinians who are firing indiscriminate rockets into civilian areas in Israel. I don't believe that is valid resistance.

However, attacking settlers or anyone within the occupied territories is fine. You can't just wipe out an entire building full of non-combatants, though (and/or their neighbours). It's disgusting.

*edit* This was in response to Dhimmi.

weltweit said:

[I did actually propose a solution on another board some time ago but it is idealist and quite mad, if anyone wants to hear it let me know.]

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I'm sure everyone here would like to hear it. Fire away.

Aravis: So then, you feel I am a Nazi?

Pete: "Oppressed become oppressor." Except that Israel is not oppressing anyone. At this point, the worst you could say is that Israeli checkpoints in the "West Bank" are a apin to navigate but then the PA operates many more than Israel does with a lot less efficiency.

Israel ceded Gaza well over a year ago and in return got a daily shower of rockets so tell me Pete, who is actually oppressing who?

Moono: "Zionism was outlawed as a racist movement in the 70s." Gee, I know you are young, but that young? See, this is what I have kept trying to explain to you, UN Resolutions have squat to do with legality. Resolutions may be introduced by any memeber state. If non-binding, as with the Zionism=Racism nonsense, it means nothing but an aired grievance. Please stop toying with things you have no knowledge of, you merely turn the thread to unnavigatable muck.

Weltweit: "Weltweit has been reliably informed that all tank and artillery firing is indiscriminate." Really? By who pray tell? guarantee you ether made it up or were toyed with. Our guidance is computer assisted so scratch that one please.


Grandma Death: "Ignorant f%$^&** pig..." Your choice of words betrays your lack of not only civility, but intellectual prowess. Keep up the good fight! With people like you, the "Palestinians" will forever remain mired in hopelesssness. If only all posters were so easy to dispose of.

PaulieTandoori: First, in comparing numbers of dead [in this context, that is no context what so ever], you accomplish absolutely nothing. just bevcause Qassams lack advanced guidance systems means what? That Israel is automatically the devil? Do you have the slightest grasp of what causa belli is? If not, look into it, it might shut down that avenue of thought. If you so, you are disingenuous at best...


"John Dugard." Means nothing. Know what they say about opinions? you know, what strikes me as most ironic is this: Should the "Palestinians" EVER choose to stop absolutely all aggression against Israel Proper and itspeople, it would completely hobble Israel within hours. Imagine ie? The problem with however is that the more than 2 dozen terror organisations housed in those lands could give a rat's ass about a homeland. they were given Gaza, lock, stock, and barrel and managed to turn it into one of the foulest sewers in existence. Bravo. Israel still manages to get blamed for this one. Whiners scream opression and occupation as the "Palestians" lob their killing devices across sovereign borders and nudniks like Dugard get facetime in the tabloids. Amazing!

"Tanya Reinhart." What Ms. Reinhart neglects to tell us though is that Hamas took all of 11 days to break that so called "Cease Fire," and that is not counting the human bomb who prematurely detonated on Philadeplhi Road 2 days prior to that transgression. after the 11th day violation, they continuously attacked Israel and its people via Qassams and 2 other bombing attacks. There was never a HAMAS Cease Fire. So Ms Rineheart, keep pushing out your Marxist nonsense , at least it keeps those of us who actually care busy.

Ironic isn't it? All these people condemning Israel yet they never failt to trot out a liberal Israeli to show us ,"Look!!! An Israeli is saying these devilish things so IT must be true!!!" The fact though, that an Israeli would and could say it proves that Israel; is far from a nefarious monster as she is portrayed to be by people like Mr. Tandoori.

Jonti: "why is it disgustingtio accuse a Jew of being like a Nazi." It is almost unfathomable that I actually need to take time and explain this to an [assumed] adult. Let's see. Nazi = perpertraor of genocide against more than 6 million Jews in an 8 year given period. Jew= victim of said genocide. When the English language has a myriad of adjectives that could easily convey one's message in this case, as unpalatable as it may be regardless, using the perpertrator to describe the victim is actually a case of victimising said victim yet again.

"Racist." Yes, so you have said. however, now is the time where you should put up or shut up. Offer proof of my racism. If not, desist in your childish nonsense.

"Talk and act like a Nazi." Nazis committed genocide by gassing and other niceities. When have I ever called for the genocide of any race, especially a Semitic one [hint: Jews are Semites]? Have even called for the expulsion of Arabs from Israel? In fact it has been the opposite since just yesterday I glowingly talked of two platoonmates who yes, perish the thought, are in the IDF and are actually Arab! Again, put up or shut up.

"Just because of my religion..." Careful, your ignorance is showing. If you ever bothered to pay the slightest attention to whom you are disparaging you might have found out that I am not religious at all. I am a member of the Jewish PEOPLE.

PK: "Mass murder of Holocaust porportions." Really PK? Give us some facts will you? Please tell us of the systematic genocide. Not some cute propaganda zipits, but actual facts that back up your , heavens to betsy, alarming assertion. Thanks in advance. First though, I think someone better break the news to the million Arabs who call themselves Israeli, they might feel a bit strange and all.

"Fuck, fuck, fuck, and fuck." Great!!! You REALLY ARE learning something here PK! Keep up the fantastic work!