JoePolitix
Gone
danny la rouge said:
This is of course predicated on the assumption that TS lied and the NotW told the truth. I don't accept that. Niether did the jury.
Sheridan wins libel case
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This is of course predicated on the assumption that TS lied and the NotW told the truth. I don't accept that. Niether did the jury.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
It's predicated on 11 SSP members telling the truth and Tommy not. The News of the World is besides the point. The point is which version rings truer, that of the SSP EC, or that of Tommy? It's no contest as far as I'm concerned.JoePolitix said:
Two things to think about, though:
1. Why would Katrine Trolle claim to have had group sex with Tommy? She wasn't selling her story to a newspaper, and first aired it in public in the witness box after being summonsed? What was in it for her? To bring Tommy down? That seems far fetched.
2. Why did Keith Baldarassa - Tommy's best man, formerly a close friend and political ally - say Tommy had confessed to him? Badness? A sudden desire to topple Tommy? No, again Tommy's version sounds the bizarre one.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
I very much doubt that the jury majority did believe him. More likely that they responded to his 'fuck the gutter press approach'. There's been plenty of mentions of 'honour' on this thread - and a jury saying 'fuck them' was probably the only honourable thing that happened in that courtroom.JoePolitix said:
JoePolitix
Gone
danny la rouge said:
Its got everything to do with the NotW, they were the ones who stood accused afterall, not TS or the SSP EC.
As for the facts of the case, like you I wasn't in court and haven't heard all the facts. I could equally put to you the concinving alibis that provided for Tommy's whereabouts when he was supposed to be in seedy swingers clubs, the support of Gail etc.
However, what I do know is that a working class jury heard all the evidence presented by both sides of the dispute and decided that TS's case was more convincing than that of the Scum of the World and their "left" allies. That'll do for me.
JoePolitix
Gone
4thwrite said:
Well obviously that's speculation, you can always impute the motives of the jury but I think you have to prima facie assume that they understood the facts of the case and the points of law and reached their decision accordingly.
However, there is still a flaw in your argument: if the jury believed the events as you did then they would have reached the conclusion that TS was prepared to fuck over his comrades and accuse innocent women of pretending to have fucked him to save his image. If they had thought this it would've hardly have been "honourable" for them to find in his favour at the expense of "innocent comrades" would it?
Surely it would seem more likely that the jury believed TS's arguement that a rival grouping in his party formed a marrage of convienance with the Scum of the World for their own factional purposes?
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
No probably not, but the jury was working class so they'd have picked all that up instinctively.4thwrite said:
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
No, Tommy brought the action; he needn't have. There would have been no court, no dragging his party through the mire, no lurid accusations aired across all the media for weeks, no accusing his friends and comrades of lying.JoePolitix said:
The News of the World did what it does. Tommy could have ignored the story, treated it with the contempt it deserved, gone to a rival paper with his side, or said he'd made a fool of himself and was working through it with his wife. But he chose the course of action that would cause most damage to his comrades and his party.
Did you see the BBC Scotland programme "Sex, Lies and Socialism"? Anyone who did and knows anything about body language and human nature will know who was telling the truth.
Don't misunderstand me: I used to like and even admire Tommy, and I don't care what he gets up to in private - that's his and his wife's business. But because he couldn't face his wife with the truth (and I think that's the problem rather than fears over his public image), he has behaved unforgivably towards his comrades and other witnesses.
Why did the majority of the jury find against the NotW? Well, because the NotW is a trashy tabloid. But that decision creates serious problems (possible jail terms, loss of jobs - Katrine Trolle won't be able to work as an OT if she has a criminal conviction - stain on their good character) for people who aren't in the pay of the NotW, and that's why Tommy should come clean. Unlikely as that may be.
If Tommy had told the truth from the beginning this would have been long over by now, and he might have kept his convenorship of the SSP. As it is the nightmare continues, and the most successful parliamentary socialist party since the ILP could well be in its death throws.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Wasn't it part of the argument of that BBC programme that Tommy Sheridan was a habitual liar, lying about Militant and its true nature from the start of his political career? I think that Colin Fox, the party leader, also out of Militant, said it was OK to lie for the greater good as he saw it.danny la rouge said:
I think, for what it's worth, that Tommy Sheridan did spill the beans about going to Cupid's, and wanted the SSP executive to be complicit in a dishonest scheme to back him up as he took the NotW to the cleaners. They refused and unanimiously told him not to go on with his scheme. He ignored them; they, quite correctly and honourably, refused to lie to the court, and now he's calling them "scabs".
eta - isn't it democratic centralism for Trots to abide by the orders of their central committee? Or have I got that wrong? Probably. It's a stupid rlule anyway I think.
The civil jury let him off with it by a majority. Well good for him, and may he survive the legal processes yet to come. Will he get in at the next elections? He only got 20% in his own constituency last time. He only needed about seven percent of the vote to get in at the top of the SSP list in Glasgow. If they bump him off the top of the list he's out, so he may well stand on his own in the list, and maybe 7% of Glaswegian voters will feel they want a character like him representing them. But there's a real chance he won't be an SSP MSP.
I think he's angling for a career as a TV chat show host and male model, and that may be the way forward for him.
JoePolitix
Gone
4thwrite said:
I've just done a little research and it turns out that 5 people who attended the meeting testified that Sheridan denied the alligations whilst 11 testifed that he admitted to them. On top of these five people Tommy had numerous witnesses that placed him away from the scenes of his alledged naughtyness. So for the people who argue that to suggest that the anti-Sheridan side were telling porkies is a huge conspiracy, the accusion can equally be leveled at them for the implied assumption that Tommy's side committed purgery en masse.
And here's a puzzler for the anti-Sheridanistas - why did TS's council initially demand that the minutes of the infamous meeting be handed over to the court if those minutes were the same documents that have recently come to light? I can't think of a single good reason why TS's team would have wanted that.
JoePolitix
Gone
More leading SSPers come out against TS:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,,1843611,00.html
I must admit that despite my joy at the NotW getting a well deserved bloody nose I still think it's a tragedy that otherwise seemingly decent socialists are at each others throats and that peoples political and personal lives have been seriously adversely affected by this affair. However, for better or for worse its happened now and all anybody can hope is that the SSP can rebuild itself and get back on the up again under whoevers leadership that might be.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,,1843611,00.html
I must admit that despite my joy at the NotW getting a well deserved bloody nose I still think it's a tragedy that otherwise seemingly decent socialists are at each others throats and that peoples political and personal lives have been seriously adversely affected by this affair. However, for better or for worse its happened now and all anybody can hope is that the SSP can rebuild itself and get back on the up again under whoevers leadership that might be.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
It comes down to who you believe, or whether you believe it's the duty of Good Socialists(TM) to stick by a charismatic Leader even if they think he's a liar.JoePolitix said:
His SSP Branch tried to get the party to shred the minutes, which got them into trouble with a Judge. Presumably once their existence was known and couldn't be hidden the counsel would want to impugn them.JoePolitix said:
I read in the Weekly Worker (source of all good Trot gossip) that the fundamentally unwise action was to minute such a meeting at all. You could argue (and JoePolitix certainly willl argue) that taking a minute at all was a malicious act to discredit TS but you could equally argue that not minuting a meeting as important as this would be dishonest in a different way. At the end of the day they are bureaucrats and probably couldn't resist having a minute.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
The Civil War continues ...
Apparently the Glasgow Kelvin Branch of the SSP and several other Glasgow branches have passed resolutions opposing Sheridan's labelling of the SSP leaders who testified against him as 'scabs'. The Kelvin Branch motion was apparently passed by a large majority earlier this week and "declares that it has no confidence in Tommy Sheridan as an SSP MSP". They have called for the SSP to organise area meetings at which Sheridan should be invited to discuss his conduct and accusations.
The Orkney branch has passed a resolution calling for Sheridan to be re-elected as convenor.
I also understand a member of the CWI section in the south of Ireland, the Socialist Party, has gone public and criticised Sheridan against the uncritical CWI line.
Apparently the Glasgow Kelvin Branch of the SSP and several other Glasgow branches have passed resolutions opposing Sheridan's labelling of the SSP leaders who testified against him as 'scabs'. The Kelvin Branch motion was apparently passed by a large majority earlier this week and "declares that it has no confidence in Tommy Sheridan as an SSP MSP". They have called for the SSP to organise area meetings at which Sheridan should be invited to discuss his conduct and accusations.
The Orkney branch has passed a resolution calling for Sheridan to be re-elected as convenor.
I also understand a member of the CWI section in the south of Ireland, the Socialist Party, has gone public and criticised Sheridan against the uncritical CWI line.
Geoff Collier
Active Member
Fullyplumped said:
The SSP isn't a democratic centralist organisation but that's not how democratic centralism is supposed to work anyway.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
No, that was one quote from one contributor - Michael Crick. It was a very brief contribution, and can't be said to have formed part of any argument central to the programme. The reporter who made the programme - Glenn Campbell - was, if anything, trying to paint a reasonably sympathetic picture of Tommy.Fullyplumped said:
And you can't take away from him what he achieved: the end of warrant sales in Scotland, a major role in the anti Poll Tax campaign (I was involved in the anti Poll Tax unions at the time, and remember his contribution well), and the first parliamentary socialist party since the second world war.
About the minute - if you are discussing the future of a colleague, then the meeting needs to be minuted to protect both parties. Informal discussions had already been held over the years between Tommy and his then close friends, Keith Baldarassa and Alan McCombs, about stories circulating around Glasgow. But when it hit the front page of the biggest selling Sunday paper they felt they had to confront Tommy in a more accountable setting to see how he was intending the handle it. He refused to take their advice, and emarked upon a course that they all advised him against as disastrous for the party. They were right. And Tommy's behaviour in the 18 months since has proved that the minute was necessary. Albiet only one copy was kept, and lodged in the keeping of party secretary Allan Green, and its contents kept confidential.
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
I think you'll find that Tommy is the only one that can claim to have been right, having won his action.danny la rouge said:
And it's pretty plain whose actions have been disastrous for the party too, and it's those amatuers who backstabbed him once he left the meeting imo. Oooh Tommy must resign and be publicly humiliated instead of fighting the Murdoch empire!
DexterTCN said:
Yeah, as everyone knows court verdicts are always right.
There's an interview with one of those nasty women who maliciously libelled Tommy at http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,,1843590,00.html
Maybe she'll get charged with perjury and put in prison - that would be a great victory for working class politics, wouldn't it?
What a fuckin mess.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
I think the mission of the SSP was somewhat more ambitious than taking on Murdoch.DexterTCN said:
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
This wasn't the SSP, this was a clique. The SSP were not to be informed until after the deed was done.Fullyplumped said:
And if they can't take on Murdoch, win or lose, what fucking good are they?
justuname...she fled the country because she felt 'humiliated'? Diddums.
DexterTCN said:This wasn't the SSP, this was a clique. The SSP were not to be informed until after the deed was done.
And if they can't take on Murdoch, win or lose, what fucking good are they?
justuname...she fled the country because she felt 'humiliated'? Diddums.
She didnt actually volunteer to give evidence in this case did she ?. like every one of the SSP related witnesses she was dragged into court because Sheridan wanted to protect his self image. She has lost her partner, other witnesses such as Carolyn Leckie and one of the signatories of the new lettter, Charlie McCarthey stand to lose their professional status if perjury charges are brought. What fucking advantage to them is speaking out.
And whilst all this is going on we had Sheridan doing an interview with that other piece of shite, Galloway on talk 107 last night when Galloway all but gave him a blow job on air. Galloway told us how he was praying for a Sheridan victory in his holiday retreat in Portugal and Sheridan told us how his wife sprinkled holy water in the high court. Galloway was practically begging on his knees for Sheridan to dtand for convenor and denouncing Colin Fox as judas (perhaps he thinks Sheridan is jesus as well). He also equated Sheridan with John MacLean.
One of the most nauseating radio interviews I have ever heard.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
If you think that's a reasonable reaction towards a woman who didn't ask for her past sex-life to be aired in public, who was interrogated in court over her private life, and who is now branded a perjurer, all for no personal gain, then your attitude towards women leaves a lot to be desired. She is going home to her parents, who happen to live in Demark; she is Danish.DexterTCN said:justuname...she fled the country because she felt 'humiliated'? Diddums.
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
Well I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition. Better to blame the people trying to make money by selling or publishing the story in the first place, than the one accused who won his day in court. You must be one of those SSP Murdoch lovers.danny la rouge said:
These same punishments you are wailing about fall on anyone invovled in cases like these, start a campaign to change the laws if you are so upset. In Britain of course, not Denmark.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
DexterTCN said:
That would be Sheridan I presume - fresh from his victory of the tabloids he sold his story to...
Presume you have a list of 'good tabloids' and 'bad tabloids'?
Would have thought that kind of comment was beneath you
Your'e all heart. Sheridan brings the case - and she ends up losing her partner, getting her sex life all over the tabloids
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
This is in fact correct in Scotland at the moment.4thwrite said:
The Sun is 10p, the Daily Record is 25 or 30 (don't really know, don't buy either) with some kind of coupon money back offer because they don't have anything like the assets to fight news International. That kind of thing used to be illegal. The Murdoch empire has been trying to get media control here for ages, this is why Sheridan went to the Record with his story, because he knows they'll put their full weight behind it. If you had any clue about the situation you would have known that.
All politicians need media. In this case Sheridan was handed it on a plate.
I don't think he'll waste the opportunity, but I suppose we just have to wait and see.
q_w_e_r_t_y
You see an investment scam and I see divinity
DexterTCN said:The Sun is 10p, the Daily Record is 25 or 30 (don't really know, don't buy either) with some kind of coupon money back offer because they don't have anything like the assets to fight news International. That kind of thing used to be illegal. The Murdoch empire has been trying to get media control here for ages, this is why Sheridan went to the Record with his story, because he knows they'll put their full weight behind it. If you had any clue about the situation you would have known that.
.
What so the "good" outcome of this case is that the Record gets to sell more newspapers, while 11 socialists have perjury charges pending, stress levels beyond belief and one former party member has lost her partner and been quizzed about her sex life in court by her former lover who denies the relationship?
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
DexterTCN said:This is in fact correct in Scotland at the moment.
The Sun is 10p, the Daily Record is 25 or 30 (don't really know, don't buy either) with some kind of coupon money back offer because they don't have anything like the assets to fight news International. That kind of thing used to be illegal. The Murdoch empire has been trying to get media control here for ages, this is why Sheridan went to the Record with his story, because he knows they'll put their full weight behind it. If you had any clue about the situation you would have known that.
All politicians need media. In this case Sheridan was handed it on a plate.
I don't think he'll waste the opportunity, but I suppose we just have to wait and see.
As you can see the cash strapped Record has only been able to give the Sheridan's £25,000 (from the Guardian story on Katrina Trolle):
Yeah, he 'using the media' to get some hard politics across isn't he
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