Did Palestine really exist?
- Thread starter Gmart
- Start date
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
rachamim18 said:
you don't understnad english do you ... indeed your grasp of it like your graps on reality is really fucking tenious... stick me on ignore now rach you are clearly too stupid to debate with any furhter... i have totally lost all patience to explain anything further if you cannot or will not or as i now beleive are too damn stupid to understand what was being said to you in the last post so be it, you deserve to be offended, i hope you are at great pains in your offense on an hourly basis... you fucking tard...
moono said:
I have been called much worse things than 'racist'. I have been wished dead. I have had huge amounts of shit thrown at me.
I have always tried to remain polite with my replies, though I accept it's not always easy.
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
Point it out, and move on, else the debate will stagnate.moono said:
Moono: I will take the bait: What have I lied about? Be specific please. This is a run of the mill insult that never seems to get qualified. In labeling you a raicst, I have thoroughly explained why. You of course have consistently failed to so in reference to your many insults of me. Now is your chance. Prove your case...
LockLIght: I wish your request WOULD come to fruition. Sadly, this forum seems to be about 90% personality issues and 10% substance. I find it very tiring and although I tell myself to avoid the nonsense it is extremely difficult not to get sucked into it. I, like you, highly value civility. If more people here were like you, it would be a much better forum.
Garfield: I will not put you on ignore but you may do so towards me if you wish. I have no problem with people holding different opinions. Instead of finding it tedious, I find it refreshing. I do find repeating the same thing over and over to be tedious but that is part of dealing with different types of people. Your abundant supply of curses shows exactly how your mind works, above and beyond that pseudo-intellectual nonsense. Oh, and as for my English, it is about my 5th language but I still manage it pretty well. How is your Hebrew?
When I respond to your points, I do not do so primarily for you or your benefit but for the many others who are reading these "exchanges." Even if you stop responding to me, I will continue showing the many holes in your leaky boat of a collective opinion so that other people might recognise problems in their own convictions.
[Edited to add the last paragraph and for spelling]
LockLIght: I wish your request WOULD come to fruition. Sadly, this forum seems to be about 90% personality issues and 10% substance. I find it very tiring and although I tell myself to avoid the nonsense it is extremely difficult not to get sucked into it. I, like you, highly value civility. If more people here were like you, it would be a much better forum.
Garfield: I will not put you on ignore but you may do so towards me if you wish. I have no problem with people holding different opinions. Instead of finding it tedious, I find it refreshing. I do find repeating the same thing over and over to be tedious but that is part of dealing with different types of people. Your abundant supply of curses shows exactly how your mind works, above and beyond that pseudo-intellectual nonsense. Oh, and as for my English, it is about my 5th language but I still manage it pretty well. How is your Hebrew?
When I respond to your points, I do not do so primarily for you or your benefit but for the many others who are reading these "exchanges." Even if you stop responding to me, I will continue showing the many holes in your leaky boat of a collective opinion so that other people might recognise problems in their own convictions.
[Edited to add the last paragraph and for spelling]
Gmart
Well-Known Member
For the record Jewboy IS hugely insulting not because of the Jew bit which might be true or might be not depending on definition, but because of BOY, which has connotations to do with the Black struggle in the US (and elsewhere) where the Whites would address adult blacks as BOY to put them down.
It is uncalled for, insulting and i wish that those who wish to continue name calling under the guise of moralising as to what they wish the world 'should' be like according to them, would leave this debate so that those of us who are actually addressing this issue can continue.
Ironic is having this happen during a discussion also paralysed by both sides' inability to compromise or let the past go.
It is uncalled for, insulting and i wish that those who wish to continue name calling under the guise of moralising as to what they wish the world 'should' be like according to them, would leave this debate so that those of us who are actually addressing this issue can continue.
Ironic is having this happen during a discussion also paralysed by both sides' inability to compromise or let the past go.
Gmart
Well-Known Member
rachamim18 said:
Where's the problem? Everyone has a conscience! And as i said immediate past should be noted especially in this case where a whole segment of society feels oppressed enough to use suicide bombers, the last resort of demonstrations against oppression. It is hard as an onlooker to not look at this and assume that they must have a reason for this.
rachamim18 said:
So why the problem? Why the killings? Why are they so upset?
rachamim18 said:
One person with one religion gets automatic acceptance. One person with another does not. Seems like a simple discrimination on the basis of religion to me.
rachamim18 said:
This is all because the Israelis invaded their land, and so to most people it seems perfectly reasonable to expect not to be ordered about by a superior force with better weapons. Your constant inability to see this invasion as what it was astonishes. If the roles were reversed you would do the same.
The US has recently invaded Iraq illegally but they will get away with it because might is right not because they were right to do so. Israel had better guns and invaded an area they wanted. The existing inhabitants complained but the rest of the world didn't know what to do with the Jews either and so went along with it.
rachamim18 said:
So again why do they think they are oppressed?
rachamim18 said:
Again you seem unable to give alternatives but accuse me of not giving a balanced choice. Put up an alternative or admit you can't.
rachamim18 said:
If i punch someone randomly in the street, and he hits me back (quite rightly i would say), then turning round and complaining about it and furthermore producing a gun and blowing his brains out cannot be justified with a 'forced to defend myself' argument.
rachamim18 said:
Security is always the reason given by the oppressor. A more effective way to confront this issue would be to solve why the Palestinians feel that they are oppressed.
rachamim18 said:
By your rationale hardly anyone in America is native except for the Native Americans. For simplicity most people who are born somewhere are natives of that area in 99.9% of cases. Finding an extreme example to back yourself up demeans your argument. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
rachamim18 said:
So you feel that the media in the US is biased against the Israelis point of view??
rachamim18 said:
So who IS responsible for their deaths? Israeli air and ground attacks and indiscriminate fire from Israeli soldiers is hardly going to be good for their health or do you deny that that happens too?
rachamim18 said:
A law system imposed on them by their invaders.
rachamim18 said:
Terrorism eh? It's everywhere you know! and is a great excuse for many totalitarian governments everywhere. Same as your security excuse above, don't deal with the reasons behind it, just use superior force. What a great example of Judaism to set for the world.
rachamim18 said:
I dealt with this above but you must be the only person who even debates this. Maybe i should start another poll asking if people think that Israel discriminates on the basis of religion. I suspect that the answer would be even more convincing than this poll. The whole basis of Israel is that the Jews are returning to the land promised to them by God in scripture.
Rachamim;
Sure. You called me 'racist'. On what grounds ? That's the question that you've consistently dodged. Moderators have examined anything I've said so, in the context of this forum, your slur is unfounded. That makes you a liarboy and you should apologise. I'll continue refering to you as a liarboy until you do. In the context of this forum that's what you are.
Your contributions to the topic of this thread have been an excercise in 'disseminating misinformation'. It's what you do. Obviously Palestine existed, exists and will exist. Your propensity to distort and slur gives jews a bad name, 'political correctness' intended to divide and separate. You see 'anti-Semitism' ( misnomer) where there is none and you are desperate to trumpet your 'jewishness'. It's an immature attitude which forms the stereotype.
GMarthews;
Sure. You called me 'racist'. On what grounds ? That's the question that you've consistently dodged. Moderators have examined anything I've said so, in the context of this forum, your slur is unfounded. That makes you a liarboy and you should apologise. I'll continue refering to you as a liarboy until you do. In the context of this forum that's what you are.
Your contributions to the topic of this thread have been an excercise in 'disseminating misinformation'. It's what you do. Obviously Palestine existed, exists and will exist. Your propensity to distort and slur gives jews a bad name, 'political correctness' intended to divide and separate. You see 'anti-Semitism' ( misnomer) where there is none and you are desperate to trumpet your 'jewishness'. It's an immature attitude which forms the stereotype.
GMarthews;
You're swallowing the Zionist propaganda manual whole. It's people wanting land, natural enough, but it's not their's and it's already occupied. What sort of a god would say 'ethnically cleanse, separate and murder to make yours' ? It's obscene to allow them any spiritual legitimacy in this horror.
moono said:
He must be quaking in his boots.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Moderators do occasionally have better things to do than read through multiple huge threads looking for further insults, but apparently the point I made earlier has slipped a little, so let me re-iterate:
- This is not a thread about who is a racist; this is in fact not even the forum for such things (not that there is one) and while a reasonable bit of byplay and "robust debate" can be expected, this isn't it.
- This is a thread about the existence of Palestine as an entity, perhaps moving out into broader territory regarding territorial claims et al.
Here's a simple strategy for posting: read through your post before submitting it. Does it contain accusations about somebody else's character, or ad-hominem attacks? If so, remove the bits that do, or don't post it at all.
I'm not going to pop in here every now and then, put up a nuclear warning, have things quieten down a bit for a few days and then have to do it again. I don't care whether you feel slighted by someone else's accusation and that you have a right to an apology, or whether you think somebody's motivations are appalling and they must be hounded out. This is interfering with the operation of the forum itself. I don't really have to ban somebody to make a point, do I?
- This is not a thread about who is a racist; this is in fact not even the forum for such things (not that there is one) and while a reasonable bit of byplay and "robust debate" can be expected, this isn't it.
- This is a thread about the existence of Palestine as an entity, perhaps moving out into broader territory regarding territorial claims et al.
Here's a simple strategy for posting: read through your post before submitting it. Does it contain accusations about somebody else's character, or ad-hominem attacks? If so, remove the bits that do, or don't post it at all.
I'm not going to pop in here every now and then, put up a nuclear warning, have things quieten down a bit for a few days and then have to do it again. I don't care whether you feel slighted by someone else's accusation and that you have a right to an apology, or whether you think somebody's motivations are appalling and they must be hounded out. This is interfering with the operation of the forum itself. I don't really have to ban somebody to make a point, do I?
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
FridgeMagnet said:
sorry how exactly is this helping ?
you come in here wave a big stick at people clear enguaged in debate and tell them don't talk about that talk about this and only this... you're not even participatory on this thread, if it's generating to many reported posts by muppets then bin it, like you would with any other thread.
If not then why try and set the parameters for debate, threads wander as do topics, attempting to constrain them is futile as trying to heard cats.
so what if it's straied fromt he origninal topic people are attempting communication with each other, all be it from a stilfed stand point due to some ideological difference however there is diaolouge, which considering the irreconcileable differences between the positions talen on eihter side of the debate is at least a good start, why are you attempting to prevent that?
can you please respond to my previous post addressed to you as well.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
so long as htey are nto pro palestinian viewpoints right... then it's merely sideing with murders...rachamim18 said:
you are damn right it's tiedious...rachamim18 said:
so how is that care to explain how my mind works please in detail... if having a veriftable lexicon of language and beign able to apply these words to the relvant situation and use them toaccurately describe the situation shows how a persons mind works i'll be a horse inthe grand national...rachamim18 said:
i dont'' speak hebrew can you point me to the prerequist and also explain why it would be?rachamim18 said:
then you are assuming a greter influence than you have rach, illiousions of grandure are not becomingrachamim18 said:
so you are going to respond to my points which show holes in other peoples theories in order that another third group may then doubt their own experince and personal knowledge...rachamim18 said:
lemme know when that starts making sense yeah i'll be out the back having a smoke...
GMarthews: Your screed about "Jewboy" makes no sense. Why would Jews take offense because part of the word was used in a dnigrating manner toawards American blacks? What really matters is that Jews as a whole tend to find it offensive. That should be enough for most.
"Suicide Bombers." I have just explained about this phenomenon in another thread but for expediency's sake, I will do so again here;The first casse was an Iranian 13 year old boy during the Iraq/Iran War. He took a grenade, pulled the pin, and ran under an approaching Iraqi tank. He was blown to bits but the tank had nary a scratch. this is indicative of the futility of the action as a whole.
From Iran it was quickly copied by the group Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. Given the groups' connection to Iran this is no great suprise. It has nothing at all to do with desperation. Its utility is in its dramatic statement. there are much more desperate groups and situation s that have never experienced the phenomenon. Want to take Afghanistan in the early 80s? Many merely had 19th Century CE/AD muskets, yet not a single one ever crossed into Tajikistan, boarded a bus, and blew Soviet citizens to smithereens. Timor? Dafur?
To date, outside of Muslim fundamentalists, only the Tamil ethnic group on Sri Lanka have chosen to use it. The act not only makes a dramatic statement picked up by international media but also serves as a rallying point for a largely demoralised demographic. In short, it is a cult of martyrdom. To a Western mind, the act seems so incomprehensible that the mind automatically consigns desperation to the act. Far from it. Is the retarded boy strapped in a bobm belt despaerate?
"Why the killings, why the upset people if Israel is not a religious state." Um, your question makes no sense. Never the less, I will quickly answer the valid question. Arabs began their violence in 1920 because they wanted the entire land for themselves. Muslims have a concept called "waqf." The Arabic word is actually an Islamic administrative area [think "parish"]. The conept of the "waqf" though is that once aland has been conquered by Muslims, it is forever more Islamic land. Rule by any other faith is blasphemous.
So, on the Arab side there ARE those that are fighting this as a religious battle, as "jihad." All in all though, most look at it as a nationalist struggle.
"Suicide Bombers." I have just explained about this phenomenon in another thread but for expediency's sake, I will do so again here;The first casse was an Iranian 13 year old boy during the Iraq/Iran War. He took a grenade, pulled the pin, and ran under an approaching Iraqi tank. He was blown to bits but the tank had nary a scratch. this is indicative of the futility of the action as a whole.
From Iran it was quickly copied by the group Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. Given the groups' connection to Iran this is no great suprise. It has nothing at all to do with desperation. Its utility is in its dramatic statement. there are much more desperate groups and situation s that have never experienced the phenomenon. Want to take Afghanistan in the early 80s? Many merely had 19th Century CE/AD muskets, yet not a single one ever crossed into Tajikistan, boarded a bus, and blew Soviet citizens to smithereens. Timor? Dafur?
To date, outside of Muslim fundamentalists, only the Tamil ethnic group on Sri Lanka have chosen to use it. The act not only makes a dramatic statement picked up by international media but also serves as a rallying point for a largely demoralised demographic. In short, it is a cult of martyrdom. To a Western mind, the act seems so incomprehensible that the mind automatically consigns desperation to the act. Far from it. Is the retarded boy strapped in a bobm belt despaerate?
"Why the killings, why the upset people if Israel is not a religious state." Um, your question makes no sense. Never the less, I will quickly answer the valid question. Arabs began their violence in 1920 because they wanted the entire land for themselves. Muslims have a concept called "waqf." The Arabic word is actually an Islamic administrative area [think "parish"]. The conept of the "waqf" though is that once aland has been conquered by Muslims, it is forever more Islamic land. Rule by any other faith is blasphemous.
So, on the Arab side there ARE those that are fighting this as a religious battle, as "jihad." All in all though, most look at it as a nationalist struggle.
GMarthews: "Religious discrimination on automatic citizenship for Jews while denying it to others." Maybe you missed the part about the UN mandating Israel as a national home for the Jewish PEOPLE. Arabs have 21 nations [not including the PA Mandate]. The Jews have ONE. You claim racism, etc. but are you aware that Muslims from Chechnya, Dafur,Bosnia, Albania, and MANY other places have sought and received political and humanitarian refuge within Israel? Why would that be if Israel were indeed rejudiced againt them?
"Arab militants are perfectly reasonable since Israel invaded their land with better weapond and orders them around, etc, etc..." Really? So this is why they claim that they want to exterminate EVERY Jew on the planet? Arabs have no real weapons? I guess you forgot to tell the Arabs then. They have missiles with a 17 km range and only seconds to launch. They also have rapid multi launchers that can fire 40 missiles within 20 seconds. They have taken out Isaraeli tanks and countless ATVs. Please do your homework.
"US invaded Iraq illegaly." Nope. They did so with a UN Mandate. Their reasons for invading WERE disingenuous but that is neither here nor there.
"Rest of the world did not know what to do with the Jews either so they allowed them to create Israel..." The Partition's original formulation dates from 1919. It did not take place because of the Holocaust.
I seem unable to offer alternatives? Again, this is where your actually looking at my prior postings might help you. If you had, you would find that you are completely wrong.
"Twp wrongs do not make a right argument." Again, you make no sense whatsoever.
"Security is always the reason given by the oppressor." Yep, cause security really means nothing. I mean, who cares that the "Barrier" has led to a decrease of more than 94%? Again, you are making no sense.
"Hardly any Americans are native except for the Native Americans." E -X -A- C-T -L -Y!!!!! Extgreme example? Not at all: Although only Native Americans are truly indigenous, many Americans have roots going back 300 years or longer. Just as with "Palestinians," almost all Americans have roots only going back 150 years. This of ocurse does NOT negate their right to a fully self determining nation. Again, same with the "Palestinians." Don't the Native Americans have the roght to the same? In a perfect world, DEFINITELY. Sadly, Native American culture is in shambles in most cases. Outside of Alaska and the Navajo Nation, Native American culture is only a mere shadow of what it was. Their population is only a shadow of what it was. They have barely any political power and are suffering from a great many ills.Jews were thankfully able to preserve most of their cultural values and practices during their long exile. Then they were able to unite most of their disparate elements and strive for the reestablishment of their nation. UIf the Native Americans ever find themselves able to do this, I am all for their having an independant nation.
"Arab militants are perfectly reasonable since Israel invaded their land with better weapond and orders them around, etc, etc..." Really? So this is why they claim that they want to exterminate EVERY Jew on the planet? Arabs have no real weapons? I guess you forgot to tell the Arabs then. They have missiles with a 17 km range and only seconds to launch. They also have rapid multi launchers that can fire 40 missiles within 20 seconds. They have taken out Isaraeli tanks and countless ATVs. Please do your homework.
"US invaded Iraq illegaly." Nope. They did so with a UN Mandate. Their reasons for invading WERE disingenuous but that is neither here nor there.
"Rest of the world did not know what to do with the Jews either so they allowed them to create Israel..." The Partition's original formulation dates from 1919. It did not take place because of the Holocaust.
I seem unable to offer alternatives? Again, this is where your actually looking at my prior postings might help you. If you had, you would find that you are completely wrong.
"Twp wrongs do not make a right argument." Again, you make no sense whatsoever.
"Security is always the reason given by the oppressor." Yep, cause security really means nothing. I mean, who cares that the "Barrier" has led to a decrease of more than 94%? Again, you are making no sense.
"Hardly any Americans are native except for the Native Americans." E -X -A- C-T -L -Y!!!!! Extgreme example? Not at all: Although only Native Americans are truly indigenous, many Americans have roots going back 300 years or longer. Just as with "Palestinians," almost all Americans have roots only going back 150 years. This of ocurse does NOT negate their right to a fully self determining nation. Again, same with the "Palestinians." Don't the Native Americans have the roght to the same? In a perfect world, DEFINITELY. Sadly, Native American culture is in shambles in most cases. Outside of Alaska and the Navajo Nation, Native American culture is only a mere shadow of what it was. Their population is only a shadow of what it was. They have barely any political power and are suffering from a great many ills.Jews were thankfully able to preserve most of their cultural values and practices during their long exile. Then they were able to unite most of their disparate elements and strive for the reestablishment of their nation. UIf the Native Americans ever find themselves able to do this, I am all for their having an independant nation.
Rachamim;
Not according to the United Nations Secretary General. He has firmly declared the invasion illegal, in his opinion, and it remains to be tested at the opportune moment.
Rachamim's statement is therefore false.
More disseminated misinformation. 'Hasbara' it's called, according to affected Arabs.
Not according to the United Nations Secretary General. He has firmly declared the invasion illegal, in his opinion, and it remains to be tested at the opportune moment.
Rachamim's statement is therefore false.
More disseminated misinformation. 'Hasbara' it's called, according to affected Arabs.
GMArthews: Yes, I do feel that the American media, in general, holds a bias against Israel. Arabs say the same about anti-Arab bias in the US. It is all about perception.
"If I deny Israeli responsibility for all 'Palestinian' non-combatant deaths attributed to it, who is really responsible then?" Obviously "Palestinians." Everybody and their brother has automatic weaponry there. Sad to say but many militants manage to get hold of Israeli weaponry so even if an autopsy were able to be performed [and they never are], it would still be nearly impossible to accurately pinpoint the responsible party. However, there are still cases that could be shown NOT to be Israeli responsiblity by forensics and other means.
"Law system imposed upon them." WRONG. PA law is their OWN law. In addition, International Law is not imposed upon THEM, but upon ALL people.
"Instead of dealing with the reasons behind it, oppresive governmnets only try to deal with the terrosim itself." What utter nonsense. Say that next time a member of your family gets blown up. You must very young indeed. Problems leading to such acts should be dealt with but the iimmediate problem is innocent people being purposely targeted. their lives deserve oritection before other lives deserve better circumstances. this is mere common sense.
Again with "Judaisim." Why can you not understand that Israel is a SECULAR nation? I know that you seem to wish it were not so but in fact it is.
You still have not proved that Israel is a religious state. PROVE YOUR ASSERTION.
"If I deny Israeli responsibility for all 'Palestinian' non-combatant deaths attributed to it, who is really responsible then?" Obviously "Palestinians." Everybody and their brother has automatic weaponry there. Sad to say but many militants manage to get hold of Israeli weaponry so even if an autopsy were able to be performed [and they never are], it would still be nearly impossible to accurately pinpoint the responsible party. However, there are still cases that could be shown NOT to be Israeli responsiblity by forensics and other means.
"Law system imposed upon them." WRONG. PA law is their OWN law. In addition, International Law is not imposed upon THEM, but upon ALL people.
"Instead of dealing with the reasons behind it, oppresive governmnets only try to deal with the terrosim itself." What utter nonsense. Say that next time a member of your family gets blown up. You must very young indeed. Problems leading to such acts should be dealt with but the iimmediate problem is innocent people being purposely targeted. their lives deserve oritection before other lives deserve better circumstances. this is mere common sense.
Again with "Judaisim." Why can you not understand that Israel is a SECULAR nation? I know that you seem to wish it were not so but in fact it is.
You still have not proved that Israel is a religious state. PROVE YOUR ASSERTION.
Moono: "Palestine existed, exists, and will continue to exist." Wrong on the first two, the third remains to be seen. Please qualify your assertion. When did it exist? Describe it.
I have never used the incorrect term "anti-Semitism." You obviously have me confused with someone else.
"Zioinist propaganda manual." Again, Zionism uses no theology or Scripture as the basis for ANYTHING. It relies on history and science to prove its claim for the land.Many Zionists are atheists.
"UN Sec. General has called the US deployment in Iraw an illegal action." Please provide a source for that.
Fridge: While I certainly agree with you with regards to personal attacks [something I have been saying for as long as I can remember], I wonder how you have come to the conclusion that racist terminology does not qualify as a personal attack?
Garfield: If you ever avail yourself to the archived threads, and take a peek back at my very first post here, you will find an interesting dynamic beginning.From that post onward I was attacked merely for rationally questioning the rush to judgement here. the majority opinion here is no mine. Still I manage to participate here without resorting to expletives [have never cursed here, have uused the term "cirdcle jerk" once and "rat's ass" twice] or uncivil exchanges. ergo, your claim that I do not put up with "pro- Palestinian" viewpoints is nonsense.
"siding with murderers..." Actually, only one side qualifies as a murderer and it is not Israel. The militants freely admit that thjey purposely taget civilains and HAMAS calls for the murder of all Jews worldwide. Israel does obtain collateral damage but not as any deliberate action.
"How Garfield's mind works." I would love to but our esteemed moderator has correctly relegated such nonsense to personal messaging. Let me know if you are still curious via p.m.
"Garfield cannot speak Hebrew." It was meant to point out that you should not criticise others' lack of perfect English.
"My assumption that I have a greater influence than I actually have." Actually, I regularly receive p.m.s from several differen people who never post here but still manage to follow these threads pretty closely. The p.m.s represent the whole spectrum of opinion by the way. Even if it was but one person the effort would be worth it because that person took my post as food for thought. to me, this is the point of this, as well as my learning .
"Let you know, you are having a smoke." Still have not hit that ignore button I guess.
GMarthews: "Quoting propaganda." OK, quote it: Now is your chance to prove your point and show me up. Please quote the relevant saying. Thanks.
I have never used the incorrect term "anti-Semitism." You obviously have me confused with someone else.
"Zioinist propaganda manual." Again, Zionism uses no theology or Scripture as the basis for ANYTHING. It relies on history and science to prove its claim for the land.Many Zionists are atheists.
"UN Sec. General has called the US deployment in Iraw an illegal action." Please provide a source for that.
Fridge: While I certainly agree with you with regards to personal attacks [something I have been saying for as long as I can remember], I wonder how you have come to the conclusion that racist terminology does not qualify as a personal attack?
Garfield: If you ever avail yourself to the archived threads, and take a peek back at my very first post here, you will find an interesting dynamic beginning.From that post onward I was attacked merely for rationally questioning the rush to judgement here. the majority opinion here is no mine. Still I manage to participate here without resorting to expletives [have never cursed here, have uused the term "cirdcle jerk" once and "rat's ass" twice] or uncivil exchanges. ergo, your claim that I do not put up with "pro- Palestinian" viewpoints is nonsense.
"siding with murderers..." Actually, only one side qualifies as a murderer and it is not Israel. The militants freely admit that thjey purposely taget civilains and HAMAS calls for the murder of all Jews worldwide. Israel does obtain collateral damage but not as any deliberate action.
"How Garfield's mind works." I would love to but our esteemed moderator has correctly relegated such nonsense to personal messaging. Let me know if you are still curious via p.m.
"Garfield cannot speak Hebrew." It was meant to point out that you should not criticise others' lack of perfect English.
"My assumption that I have a greater influence than I actually have." Actually, I regularly receive p.m.s from several differen people who never post here but still manage to follow these threads pretty closely. The p.m.s represent the whole spectrum of opinion by the way. Even if it was but one person the effort would be worth it because that person took my post as food for thought. to me, this is the point of this, as well as my learning .
"Let you know, you are having a smoke." Still have not hit that ignore button I guess.
GMarthews: "Quoting propaganda." OK, quote it: Now is your chance to prove your point and show me up. Please quote the relevant saying. Thanks.
Moono: Guess what? Israel Shahak is a fraud. The claim that Jews look at all non Jews as promiscuous, and no different than animals [asses and horses] is a profane and highly racist comment. Are you sure that you wish to retain that as a source Moono? "To murder a gentile is no crime at all" "Not punishable by death?" "Removing ladders is not a sin?" UTTER FABRICATIONS. Moono, if you truly care about racism, you will remove that source.
Gmart
Well-Known Member
rachamim18 said:
You're amazing! even when someone fights your corner, you attack them. Using the term boy for an adult is offensive and IMO should not happen. That you should attack me for this... Do you feel surrounded by enemies at all times? Persecution complex maybe??
No wonder you feel that the US media is biased against the Israelis, EVERYONE is against you!!
Also your OP at no point lists the alternatives you would rather have seem in this poll. If you are interested in putting up your alternative then please do, it would be interesting, but please stop claiming that you already have. All you do is give a history lesson to try and prove that the people who were born there and lived there have no right to self-determination there, whilst trying to prove that Palestine did not exist, something which many posters have disproved many times over.
Just because there are many Arab states does not give the Israelis the right to invade one (a fallacy again). Historically the Jews have never had a home. Sad certainly, but that was just tough luck. Their inability to accept this, and their decision to force God's hand into giving them a home has succeeded but at the expense of becoming what they most hated, an oppressor of people.
Again history means nothing and trying to use it to prove that violence is ok is just sick. There's no doubt that the oppression against the Jews was terrible, but this does not give them the right to become oppressors and this is what i am referring to when considering fallacy 42 (2 wrongs don't make a right)
So why are the Palestinians upset then?
Rachamim, you're just repetitively wriggling; this guy is a fraud, that guy is a fraud, the Israeli press are wrong, the world doesn't understand etc., etc.
Coupled with your numb acceptance, even relish, of violence against Palestinians and 'bare faced' lies, to quote another member, you are contributing to a stereotype which decent Israelis could well do without.
You want ME to link to Annan's statements for you ? Bollox. You never provide any backup, although in your case it's because you can't. You can take my word for it, Annan says the invasion of Iraq was illegal and I ain't no liarboy.
Coupled with your numb acceptance, even relish, of violence against Palestinians and 'bare faced' lies, to quote another member, you are contributing to a stereotype which decent Israelis could well do without.
You want ME to link to Annan's statements for you ? Bollox. You never provide any backup, although in your case it's because you can't. You can take my word for it, Annan says the invasion of Iraq was illegal and I ain't no liarboy.
GMarthews: "Fighting my corner?" I think that I understand what you are trying to say. Someone supporting soemthing I say is not going to make me then support everything they say. IF they speak what I feel is the truth, then I sill support it regardless of their dealings with me. I acknowledge a person that deserves it.
So, I am paranoid? WOW, thanks for letting me know.
I have NEVER clamimed that "Palestinians" do NOT have the right to self determination. Again you are totally incorrect.
I have never said that "they don't exist." They have existed since 1948.
Historically the Jews have never had a home? So, the Kingdoms of Judea and Israel never existed? What about the Kingdom of tiran? What of the Jewish Kingdom in what is now Yemen? The Jews have actually had nations in 5 different places. However, their original home is right where both Israel and the envisioned "Palestinian State" now stand.
"Force G-D's hand..." What EVER are you going on about? Zinism is a secular ideology . Most Israelis are secular. They, like me, are Jewish by ethnicity first, not by religion.
I love how you pick and choose the rules of the world. "History means nothing" EXCEPT for the preceeding generation? Must have taken you a lifetime to develop that personal philosophy, right? Sadly for you, most people do NOT agreee with such a ridiculous sentiment. Are you an anarchist by chance?
Who is using history to prove violence is ok? You really do not make any sense at all.
Moono: That you cite racist work as your source, is your option. That the moderator allows it is her option. That I call you on it is of course my option. Although that man, unlike Israel Shamir, IS actually Jewish, or was since he has been dead for a few years now, makes no difference. He hated himself by all accounts. He is famous in Israel by the way as one of the most hated men in the nation. His whole beef was Israel occupying Sinai. Even when Israel gave it back [it was after all only a bargaining chip], he managed to find other reasons to be a scumbag. Clamiming that Jewish Scriptuure allows Jewish men ro rape non-Jewish women, that Jewish Scripture looks at all non-Jews as degenerates, and so on is racism of the worst kind. He even makes up sources in his annotations, listing Talmudic tractates that have never existed!
So, I am paranoid? WOW, thanks for letting me know.
I have NEVER clamimed that "Palestinians" do NOT have the right to self determination. Again you are totally incorrect.
I have never said that "they don't exist." They have existed since 1948.
Historically the Jews have never had a home? So, the Kingdoms of Judea and Israel never existed? What about the Kingdom of tiran? What of the Jewish Kingdom in what is now Yemen? The Jews have actually had nations in 5 different places. However, their original home is right where both Israel and the envisioned "Palestinian State" now stand.
"Force G-D's hand..." What EVER are you going on about? Zinism is a secular ideology . Most Israelis are secular. They, like me, are Jewish by ethnicity first, not by religion.
I love how you pick and choose the rules of the world. "History means nothing" EXCEPT for the preceeding generation? Must have taken you a lifetime to develop that personal philosophy, right? Sadly for you, most people do NOT agreee with such a ridiculous sentiment. Are you an anarchist by chance?
Who is using history to prove violence is ok? You really do not make any sense at all.
Moono: That you cite racist work as your source, is your option. That the moderator allows it is her option. That I call you on it is of course my option. Although that man, unlike Israel Shamir, IS actually Jewish, or was since he has been dead for a few years now, makes no difference. He hated himself by all accounts. He is famous in Israel by the way as one of the most hated men in the nation. His whole beef was Israel occupying Sinai. Even when Israel gave it back [it was after all only a bargaining chip], he managed to find other reasons to be a scumbag. Clamiming that Jewish Scriptuure allows Jewish men ro rape non-Jewish women, that Jewish Scripture looks at all non-Jews as degenerates, and so on is racism of the worst kind. He even makes up sources in his annotations, listing Talmudic tractates that have never existed!
Gmart
Well-Known Member
I think this thread has clearly stated that you are in the minority as to your view that Palestine didn't exist before 1948 thus rendering the land free (in your view) to invade (or occupy in your view).
Consequently though you feel that the Palestinians have the right to self rule (very kind of you) you seem keen that they just get out of the land where they were born. I pity Israel and you for having such a hard opinion. I can see that despite the vote here your view is unchangable and it seems a shame that you seem unwilling to even engage in a discussion as to what you would do in the Palestinian's place. I suspect you would fight for your rights but maybe you feel that you would just accept the governance of the Israelis. I feel that your attitude and politics will drive the area to disaster rather than peace. Compromise is needed on both sides and you don't seem able to do that to any degree.
Meanwhile i challenge you to find a pro-Palestinian cartoon to prove your pro-Palestinian bias in the American media. I can't, all the cartoons seem to be pro-Israelis. Fancy that!
I am not an anarchist.
Good luck!
Consequently though you feel that the Palestinians have the right to self rule (very kind of you) you seem keen that they just get out of the land where they were born. I pity Israel and you for having such a hard opinion. I can see that despite the vote here your view is unchangable and it seems a shame that you seem unwilling to even engage in a discussion as to what you would do in the Palestinian's place. I suspect you would fight for your rights but maybe you feel that you would just accept the governance of the Israelis. I feel that your attitude and politics will drive the area to disaster rather than peace. Compromise is needed on both sides and you don't seem able to do that to any degree.
Meanwhile i challenge you to find a pro-Palestinian cartoon to prove your pro-Palestinian bias in the American media. I can't, all the cartoons seem to be pro-Israelis. Fancy that!
I am not an anarchist.
Good luck!
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Wrong. The first suicide bombers were the Nihilists of Czarist Russia
The first suicide bombing occured in 1881
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bomber#Background
The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam were the first to perfect the technique by using a bomb jacket.
You could go even further back and say that the Black Hand (Ujedinjenje ili Smrt) predated the Tamil Tigers. Then there were the Japanesee Kamikaze bombers. I find it interesting the way you and your fellwo travellers have deliberately edited out the bits you didn't want in order to provide an ideologically skewed version of events to demonise Islam and therefore justify Israel's continued violence towards a civilian population.
All you have done is bought and swallowed whole the CIA narrative of suicide bombers.
Before you tar all Muslims as "suicide bombers" or the "inventors of suicide bombings" you might want to do some reading first.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
When you say "Jews" you are being deliberately narrow in your definition. Your thesis is also informed by the Talmud.
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