ska invita
back on the other side
I'm curious to know what psychology has to say about all things God, or less interesting I think, Gods. Im imagining something about ego and id and whatnot.
Anyone know?
Anyone know?
Whats Psychology got to say about God
- Thread starter ska invita
- Start date
Not sure what psychology's got to say about it, but i can tell you what my psychology has to say!
God stops people from taking full responsibility for their own lives and decisions. And without taking that responsibility, one cannot attain the available freedom that is the miracle of human life. Freedom, the sort that exists at our very core, can only be achieved once we kill off God. On an individual basis, which of course has happened the world over, and humanity as a whole. When the latter happens, no more war. Free people don't fight.
The idea of God simply allows others to dominate others. Freedom means not submitting and not dominating. Free people don't blame others.
God stops people from taking full responsibility for their own lives and decisions. And without taking that responsibility, one cannot attain the available freedom that is the miracle of human life. Freedom, the sort that exists at our very core, can only be achieved once we kill off God. On an individual basis, which of course has happened the world over, and humanity as a whole. When the latter happens, no more war. Free people don't fight.
The idea of God simply allows others to dominate others. Freedom means not submitting and not dominating. Free people don't blame others.
ska invita
back on the other side
-I half agree with the "GOd is dead" ideology~ it depends what type of god we're talking about.
There are however possibilities about reality that we cant dismiss out of hand, such as the idea that the universe is made of of thought primarily and physical reality is a scondary attritbute (the holographic model of the universe: http://www.rense.com/general69/holoff.htm and all that implies), and other possibilities also.
Without getting sidetracked on what is reality and what could possibly be reality I am curious about what psychology has to say - I'm expecting something like projection of the ego? Some kind of splitting of your personality and externalising aspects of your character... that kind of thing. There is hopefully more comlex stuff than that, I'd love to know what.
I'm guessing that what psychology has to say about this all is probably closest to the truth of human experience - its how the vast majority of people percieve god, or gods. This does not rule out ecstatic experience where you commune with the universe - but ususally this is more of an awe inspiring act and no communication really takes place, unlike the chrisitan who "has a talk with god".
I personally have had telepathic experiences, I doubt that we have solved the physics of the unvierse with Newton and Einstein and believe there is a "consciousness" gap in science - all of which leaves room for supernatural, superconscious aspects to reality (see link above)- I think it is way too early to rule that out, but I agree with you FF, "religious" people who claim right to the truth are definitely holding us all back.
There are however possibilities about reality that we cant dismiss out of hand, such as the idea that the universe is made of of thought primarily and physical reality is a scondary attritbute (the holographic model of the universe: http://www.rense.com/general69/holoff.htm and all that implies), and other possibilities also.
Without getting sidetracked on what is reality and what could possibly be reality I am curious about what psychology has to say - I'm expecting something like projection of the ego? Some kind of splitting of your personality and externalising aspects of your character... that kind of thing. There is hopefully more comlex stuff than that, I'd love to know what.
I'm guessing that what psychology has to say about this all is probably closest to the truth of human experience - its how the vast majority of people percieve god, or gods. This does not rule out ecstatic experience where you commune with the universe - but ususally this is more of an awe inspiring act and no communication really takes place, unlike the chrisitan who "has a talk with god".
I personally have had telepathic experiences, I doubt that we have solved the physics of the unvierse with Newton and Einstein and believe there is a "consciousness" gap in science - all of which leaves room for supernatural, superconscious aspects to reality (see link above)- I think it is way too early to rule that out, but I agree with you FF, "religious" people who claim right to the truth are definitely holding us all back.
Evolutionary psychology forms the basis for many different theories in psychology and obviously doesn't make any space for God.
Religion is a category within theories of coping though & can actually be an adaptive/successful coping strategy - within reason of course.
Parapsychologists have quite a lot to say about God & religion and might form quite a resonable opposition to some of the stuff that nikisativa has alluded to above..
I guess it just depends on how you are looking at it and what particular area of psychology you are looking at.
(I did once know an evolutionary psychologist that was a christian).
Religion is a category within theories of coping though & can actually be an adaptive/successful coping strategy - within reason of course.
Parapsychologists have quite a lot to say about God & religion and might form quite a resonable opposition to some of the stuff that nikisativa has alluded to above..
I guess it just depends on how you are looking at it and what particular area of psychology you are looking at.
(I did once know an evolutionary psychologist that was a christian).
miss minnie
Well-Known Member
i'm interested in what neuroscience finds about religion and the brain.
i've heard that frontal lobe damage can produce sensations of selflessness, like an 'out of body' experience or the feeling of a 'presence' besides self.
someone did look at the lives of one of the saints, a young girl who experienced 'visions'. they found that the 'visions' only started after she'd experienced a head injury.
http://www.onset.unsw.edu.au/issue4/neuroreligion/neuroscience and religion.htm
http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/neuro/neuronewswk.htm
i've heard that frontal lobe damage can produce sensations of selflessness, like an 'out of body' experience or the feeling of a 'presence' besides self.
someone did look at the lives of one of the saints, a young girl who experienced 'visions'. they found that the 'visions' only started after she'd experienced a head injury.
http://www.onset.unsw.edu.au/issue4/neuroreligion/neuroscience and religion.htm
http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/neuro/neuronewswk.htm
ska invita
back on the other side
sorry for long post...
I've heard this too - there are a variety of things that can produce visions, no doubt. There has been some quite thorough work done, particularly by Indian physicists, where they try and combine the disciplines of biology (neuroscience) and quantum phsycics to explain and understand what happend to yogi's in deep states of meditation.
Their findings seem to suggest that meditative states fit in quite neatly with the quantum view of the universe, and point to sites in the brain such as the brain stem as doing something or other (cant rememeber what now) that makes you see the bright light, so often reported in ecstatic moments. (some fella called Bhattacharya has written a lot about this...Panda's 'Vibrating Universe' is good too - or more mainstream, but less scientific theres Ken WIlber stuff)
Then theres that gland in your brain...perineal? something like that - when it kicks out its chemical it makes you trip.
Stanislaw Grof has also written a tonne about altered states of mind and neuroscience - although his findings conflict with the reductionist type stuff most scientists gravitate to - his extensive research (decades of it) has created too many incredible findings that mean that what people experince in altered states of mind isn't just some brain-chemistry-illusion but an uncovering of deeper truths about reality.
In a way this is another topic - ecstatic moments and visions are, in my mind at least, in a whole other league to run of the mill belief in God - a belief founded not on "experiences" (insights, visions and ecstasies) but on nuts and bolts faith. I'm sure the people who founded these religions, your moses, jesus, mohammed and buddahs, all had these hieghtened states of consciousness, but years of church and religious institutionalism has numbed all effort to know reality (particularly in the west).
Yet people believe in GOd and talk to GOd, without any direct experience, or at least only some blurry sense of wonderment in reality/universe/creation. I dont know, maybe real believers also have some religious ecstasy lite that they try and process in some anthropomorphic way (you know, like with animals, when you think they're just like humans).
This is the thing Im curious about in terms of what psychology has to say. Certainly the coping strategy mentioned above is one avenue in this, but I imagine there is another element to do with projection of ideals and ego - it is no coincidence that Gods take on such human (or humaney comprehended forms, like maybe a half man-half elephant). Whose written about this topic?
I've heard this too - there are a variety of things that can produce visions, no doubt. There has been some quite thorough work done, particularly by Indian physicists, where they try and combine the disciplines of biology (neuroscience) and quantum phsycics to explain and understand what happend to yogi's in deep states of meditation.
Their findings seem to suggest that meditative states fit in quite neatly with the quantum view of the universe, and point to sites in the brain such as the brain stem as doing something or other (cant rememeber what now) that makes you see the bright light, so often reported in ecstatic moments. (some fella called Bhattacharya has written a lot about this...Panda's 'Vibrating Universe' is good too - or more mainstream, but less scientific theres Ken WIlber stuff)
Then theres that gland in your brain...perineal? something like that - when it kicks out its chemical it makes you trip.
Stanislaw Grof has also written a tonne about altered states of mind and neuroscience - although his findings conflict with the reductionist type stuff most scientists gravitate to - his extensive research (decades of it) has created too many incredible findings that mean that what people experince in altered states of mind isn't just some brain-chemistry-illusion but an uncovering of deeper truths about reality.
In a way this is another topic - ecstatic moments and visions are, in my mind at least, in a whole other league to run of the mill belief in God - a belief founded not on "experiences" (insights, visions and ecstasies) but on nuts and bolts faith. I'm sure the people who founded these religions, your moses, jesus, mohammed and buddahs, all had these hieghtened states of consciousness, but years of church and religious institutionalism has numbed all effort to know reality (particularly in the west).
Yet people believe in GOd and talk to GOd, without any direct experience, or at least only some blurry sense of wonderment in reality/universe/creation. I dont know, maybe real believers also have some religious ecstasy lite that they try and process in some anthropomorphic way (you know, like with animals, when you think they're just like humans).
This is the thing Im curious about in terms of what psychology has to say. Certainly the coping strategy mentioned above is one avenue in this, but I imagine there is another element to do with projection of ideals and ego - it is no coincidence that Gods take on such human (or humaney comprehended forms, like maybe a half man-half elephant). Whose written about this topic?
ska invita
back on the other side
that helmet thing - you can buy home versions of those - also theres a pc version, where you put on headphones and soundwaves at different frequencies:
http://www.google.com/search?client...ve+generator&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
http://www.google.com/search?client...ve+generator&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
niksativa said:
Yeah, i'd say there's lots beyond pure science to be experienced in life. I mean things that are nothing to do with science. Many people these days call it a spiritual revolution. It's the one thing left for man to evolve into, and it needs man to recognise that there never was a God as we've had it defined for us. I'm sure psychologists will say similar things.
You might even call it an ego revolution. For going beyond science (and i mean higher up) requires one to become aware of and to carefully observe the ego at all times.
We need religiousness, and we need to get rid of religions, and thus God. People need to no longer be religious, but to have religiousness.
And it would be interesting to hear if modern pschologists say different things to those who wrote a few decades ago.
I will look when i have time, but read some stuff on the net by erich fromm. He might help you!
ska invita
back on the other side
WOW! Erich Fromm..never heard of him before - what a trooper - thanks FF, ~ do you know his books? what would you recommend for starters?
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Check out Erik Ericksen, Jung, Adler.
nothing to do with your post
PM me if you want this. I can't and don't wish to post it all:
In the past, there has been a major concern in psychology and religion (e.g. William James and C.G. Jung) but in recent years, most interest in the topic has been in decline with it almost appearing that psychology is the new religion. This discussion will try to show if indeed this is the case. It will simultaneously show how these two very different disciplines interconnect as both have as a fundamental goal, to bestow a good sense of mental health and peace within the human psyche. Furthermore, a specific example of a major world religion, (Islam) will be carefully examined to see if, and how the two approaches (psychology and religion) to human health differ. By critically evaluating and concurrently utilising a positivist and metaphysical approach to this subject matter, perhaps we will be able to better understand the pervasive fact of the meaning of our very existence.
"This is the great error of our day in the treatment of the human body that physicians separate the soul from the body" (Plato, cited in Weatherhead, 1951)
Introduction
"From the days of palaeolithic cave art to the new age musings of the disillusioned capitalists, people have sought to understand the purpose behind life" (Goring, 1992).
We all like to converse about ourselves, the world around us and how that world deeply affects us within ourselves. Talking about ourselves as psychological and spiritual beings is one of the more serious exercises we can engage in. Furthermore, we seem to instinctively know that it can guide us to the highest values within ourselves, or in psychological terms, what is called, the "search for wholeness" (Costello, 1990). Similarly, in religion, it has been the search for God, and in spirituality, the search for oneself. Though the language and terminology are slightly different for both disciplines of psychology and theology, both clearly overlap as they seek to "awaken our inner realities into consciousness and thus resulting in our behaving in a more co-ordinated and meaningful manner" (Ibid. 1990). Traditionally, individuals' yearning for self-exploration was satisfied in spiritual settings, e.g. in monasteries, where meditation and prayer gave access to the inner world.
In the past, there has been major interest into psychology and religion (e.g. William James and C.G. Jung) but in recent years, most interest in the subject has been ebbing away with it almost appearing that psychology is the new religion. This discussion will try to show if indeed this is the case whilst simultaneously showing how these two very different disciplines interconnect. Both share the major goal of imparting a good sense of mental health within the human psyche.
In more modern times, however, there has been gradual movement from these conventional methods, to what is now termed dynamic psychotherapy - "the systematic investigation and study of the unconscious mind and its psychic mechanisms and patterns" (Ibid. 1990) or any "procedure that has palliative or curative effects upon any mental, emotional or behavioural disorder" (Reber, 1995:621). In addition, there is much evidence to suggest that mental illness can in fact be due to religious concerns within an individual (e.g. Jungian psychology). However, it seems that Basit & Shoaee (2001) make the crucial point that "all forms of religion are psychological tools to face the world" (own italics).
From this very basis, it seems fundamental that we study the two fields that are so inextricably vital to our being. More importantly, is how we live our lives in prophylactic and healthy ways, which are the aims and objectives of both psychology and religion. Moreover, with the shift in paradigm from both simply being hostile to one another in the 20th century, to the increasing acceptance of psychology (or science) as an almost surrogate religion, it seems crucial that we become knowledgeable as to whether this shift is truly advantageous. Can psychology really reach those parts of us that religion has occupied in the past? Can it truly displace religion by explaining the same issues effectively but using scientific methodology? Are we now entering an age in the West where religion is no longer relevant due to scientific advance, and thus perhaps our psychological advance? These are the kind of questions that this research aims to examine by a literature review and subsequent critical analysis.
Furthermore, what is known from the literature seems to be very limited in that largely Christian and Judaic views (e.g. James, 1912; Scobie, 1975; Brown, 1973) are prevalent with no substantial research into Islam and psychology. As I myself come from an Islamic background and am student of psychology, it appeared that this gap in the literature needed to be bridged. This seems significant as the Muslim community is not immune in any sense to the same problems faced by other communities (whether they be religious or not). As a consequence, a discussion of Islam (utilised as an example of religion) compared to psychology will attempt to show if indeed, psychology is the new religion.
By critically evaluating and concurrently combining a positivist and metaphysical approach to this subject matter, perhaps we will be better able to understand the pervasive fact of the reality and meaning of humanity’s very existence.
PM me if you want this. I can't and don't wish to post it all:
Is Psychology The "New" Religion?
Abstract
Abstract
In the past, there has been a major concern in psychology and religion (e.g. William James and C.G. Jung) but in recent years, most interest in the topic has been in decline with it almost appearing that psychology is the new religion. This discussion will try to show if indeed this is the case. It will simultaneously show how these two very different disciplines interconnect as both have as a fundamental goal, to bestow a good sense of mental health and peace within the human psyche. Furthermore, a specific example of a major world religion, (Islam) will be carefully examined to see if, and how the two approaches (psychology and religion) to human health differ. By critically evaluating and concurrently utilising a positivist and metaphysical approach to this subject matter, perhaps we will be able to better understand the pervasive fact of the meaning of our very existence.
"This is the great error of our day in the treatment of the human body that physicians separate the soul from the body" (Plato, cited in Weatherhead, 1951)
Introduction
"From the days of palaeolithic cave art to the new age musings of the disillusioned capitalists, people have sought to understand the purpose behind life" (Goring, 1992).
We all like to converse about ourselves, the world around us and how that world deeply affects us within ourselves. Talking about ourselves as psychological and spiritual beings is one of the more serious exercises we can engage in. Furthermore, we seem to instinctively know that it can guide us to the highest values within ourselves, or in psychological terms, what is called, the "search for wholeness" (Costello, 1990). Similarly, in religion, it has been the search for God, and in spirituality, the search for oneself. Though the language and terminology are slightly different for both disciplines of psychology and theology, both clearly overlap as they seek to "awaken our inner realities into consciousness and thus resulting in our behaving in a more co-ordinated and meaningful manner" (Ibid. 1990). Traditionally, individuals' yearning for self-exploration was satisfied in spiritual settings, e.g. in monasteries, where meditation and prayer gave access to the inner world.
In the past, there has been major interest into psychology and religion (e.g. William James and C.G. Jung) but in recent years, most interest in the subject has been ebbing away with it almost appearing that psychology is the new religion. This discussion will try to show if indeed this is the case whilst simultaneously showing how these two very different disciplines interconnect. Both share the major goal of imparting a good sense of mental health within the human psyche.
In more modern times, however, there has been gradual movement from these conventional methods, to what is now termed dynamic psychotherapy - "the systematic investigation and study of the unconscious mind and its psychic mechanisms and patterns" (Ibid. 1990) or any "procedure that has palliative or curative effects upon any mental, emotional or behavioural disorder" (Reber, 1995:621). In addition, there is much evidence to suggest that mental illness can in fact be due to religious concerns within an individual (e.g. Jungian psychology). However, it seems that Basit & Shoaee (2001) make the crucial point that "all forms of religion are psychological tools to face the world" (own italics).
From this very basis, it seems fundamental that we study the two fields that are so inextricably vital to our being. More importantly, is how we live our lives in prophylactic and healthy ways, which are the aims and objectives of both psychology and religion. Moreover, with the shift in paradigm from both simply being hostile to one another in the 20th century, to the increasing acceptance of psychology (or science) as an almost surrogate religion, it seems crucial that we become knowledgeable as to whether this shift is truly advantageous. Can psychology really reach those parts of us that religion has occupied in the past? Can it truly displace religion by explaining the same issues effectively but using scientific methodology? Are we now entering an age in the West where religion is no longer relevant due to scientific advance, and thus perhaps our psychological advance? These are the kind of questions that this research aims to examine by a literature review and subsequent critical analysis.
Furthermore, what is known from the literature seems to be very limited in that largely Christian and Judaic views (e.g. James, 1912; Scobie, 1975; Brown, 1973) are prevalent with no substantial research into Islam and psychology. As I myself come from an Islamic background and am student of psychology, it appeared that this gap in the literature needed to be bridged. This seems significant as the Muslim community is not immune in any sense to the same problems faced by other communities (whether they be religious or not). As a consequence, a discussion of Islam (utilised as an example of religion) compared to psychology will attempt to show if indeed, psychology is the new religion.
By critically evaluating and concurrently combining a positivist and metaphysical approach to this subject matter, perhaps we will be better able to understand the pervasive fact of the reality and meaning of humanity’s very existence.
Sid's Snake
New Member
miss minnie said:
Interesting.
But I think, I was arguing this yesterday, it just tricks the Self into a Bardo.
If the mind can influence the body ( in pyschosomatic illness for example ) I can't see why the body can't trick the mindbody reversely...
Into, like I say, a Bardo.
I cannot, of course, arrugguuue this.
Only state this is what I believe. Based on a mix of intution reasoning and personal experience.
niksativa said:
Well, after being recommended him, i went out and bought escape from freedom and his follow up book (a couple of decades later) the sane society. The stuff he writes in those books just knocks you sideways mate! There's one particular bit in the second of those books that makes me want to photocopy it and post it all around the town i live in! He has articulated what i've come to think over the years in such a beautiful manner. You often have to reread passages, but that's coz it's so spot on.
He's also done fear of freedom which barking recommends highly. I also bought the art of loving, a nice slim volume about how love (the 'proper' kind) is the only way forward for mankind. I also got out of my library to have or to be?
Happy reading mate. He is the business. And before him i've spent three years reading up on osho, who really is the number one for me. But fromm comes from a perspective of how humans are, whereas osho talks about who we should become. Between them mate you have the whole gamut of humankind and who we humans are. Fascinating reading.
ska invita
back on the other side
A doorstep evangalist rang my door a couple of years back and caught me in an argumentative moodZaskar said:
I didnt invite him in but tried to give him something to think about..anhow, we got to talking and I saked him how he converted (he was born again) - guess what-His father died and then all of a sudden he started hearing voices from "the heavenly father!" I dont think you need a degree in psychology to see what happened there!
I think the senitment of "heavenly father" is an important one - I think in the Odyssey the greek gods have a similiar role, looking out for you, or working against you if you make them unhappy.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Zaskar said:
I could say the same for you, making those kind of sweeping and offensive generalisations ... sad. very sad.
oh and g-d's not a "metaphor for my parents" - he is so much more, and i get on fine with my parents.
and im perfectly capable of thinking about things in an adult and logical fashion, and working stuff out for myself.
Sid's Snake
New Member
frogwoman said:
Good for you, frogwoman
Well, as implied above there is a clue in the names often used, 'heavenly father', all that cow towing is a give away too.
I wouldnt expect those who kneel befor a parental abstraction to accept their mental dummy cos that would be akin to losing thier parent figure.
I wouldnt expect those who kneel befor a parental abstraction to accept their mental dummy cos that would be akin to losing thier parent figure.
merlin wood
mind traveller 3rd class
But then whst's God got to say about psychology?
Well, could be: 'There's more things in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your psychoogy'.
Well, could be: 'There's more things in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your psychoogy'.
niksativa said:
Mmm! The Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind says that gods are, basically, voices in people's heads. Specifically, that before two-thirds of the way through the Iliad everyone had voices - they heard what we would now call "will" as instructions from another - but then people gradually learned to integrate.
To different extents, obviously.
mhendo
Aussie in San Francisco
If you want to read a fascinating examination of a prominent psychologist's attempts to reconcile scientific and religious thought, and to stake out a place for each of them in a secularizing society, then i highly recommend an article by one of the fathers of American psychology, William James:
The Will to Believe (1897)
You might also be interested in an essay by a friend of James's, Charles Peirce:
The Fixation of Belief (1877)
This website might also prove to be of interest:
The Question of God
The Will to Believe (1897)
You might also be interested in an essay by a friend of James's, Charles Peirce:
The Fixation of Belief (1877)
This website might also prove to be of interest:
The Question of God
fela fan said:
Yeah right, and then you have a bunch of competing egos, or spiritual fragments, operating in total disharmony, and you have no more war..
fela fan said:
Some ideas of God stop people from taking responsibility for their lives, and some ideas of God are created to allow some people to dominate others, they're fairly bullshit ideas of God.
Freedom... Well, either freedom is creating your own goals, or freedom is choosing that your goals and God's goals merge.
If freedom is creating your own goals, and God is dead, then without a miracle, people are going to come up with a lot of competing goals, there will be a lot of disharmony, and as a result war. (The patrician republican romans had total freedom to create their own goals, and the power to carry them out, and the result was a series of increasingly savage civil wars leading to the Empire, because the goals they chose were the entertainment of defeating their rivals. and you say free people don't fight.)
If on the other hand, we reject the appalling idea of killing God, and realise that we're all aspects of the same self, which is easier said than done, we might find that we all have the freedom to create our own goals, and still find them in harmony with God or everybody else.
Edited to add, possibly by killing God, fela means debunking shit ideas about God, in which case we're not really in disagreement. But I don't really like that way of putting it.
ZWord said:
Freedom is not about creating our own goals. It's about killing off the idea that there is a God as history has told us.
Upon the discovery that you are God, then freedom becomes available. Not before that discovery though. And then being God, we then take full responsibility for our own lives. That's the idea of god, he/she is the final arbiter of things. When we realise we are god, then we take on what God is supposed to be responsible for.
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