Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
JoePolitix said:
But thats just it. All your argument so far is implied this and hypothetical that? Why is what hes saying uncomfortable to you?
Questions for IWCA
- Thread starter Ben66
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But thats just it. All your argument so far is implied this and hypothetical that? Why is what hes saying uncomfortable to you?
JoePolitix
Gone
MC5 said:
I don't have much time for him. There's a good critique of him here:
http://deadmenleft.blogspot.com/2005/01/kenan-malik-missing-islamophobia.html
Right I'm off.
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
MC5 said:They can be very interesting if you know what you're doing.
Feel free to elborate. I'm genuinely interested, mainly to move on my own ignorant interpretation of people being talked down to like they're kids.
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
JoePolitix said:
Surprise surprise. Run off then trolly.
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
Harold Hill said:
I've been to a number and was due to go on another soon (but I'll be somewhere else). The one's I attended were not patronising at all. They're a lot different to some of the myths you hear and read (on this site and elsewhere). It's a lot to do with the individuals attending of course and those leading it.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Investments that divide working-class people on the basis of race and racio-religious community.
Why is that dodgy? That's exactly the situation going on in Britain today and I'd imagine Oxford is no different.
Your arguments have not convinced anyone I don't think that Craft or IWCA are bigoted.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Green Eyed Monster!!!!!
I get the impression that a lot of this so-called criticism of Stuart Craft, is just pure jealousy.
It is just slating for the sake of slating.
The left has had many defeats over the last quarter of a century, is very small and weak. Someone comes along in an organisation with an original dynamic, is relatively charismatic, appeals to working class people in his own community, not some eccentric social deviant that no-one can get along with. He is not from what I have seen from him steriotypical Red Action psychophant(grown out of hanging around in gangs and dressing as a skinhead).
Many people, from what I have met of them in Blackbird Leys are supportive of him and are sympathetic with him, including Pakistanis, Asians, West Indians & White British Working Class. This cannot be said of many of those on the left who, as far as I see come across as despising him. Perhaps if they got out of cloud cuckoo land, tried to genuinely affiniate with working class issues and not patronisingly tell the working class what their main concern should be; e.g. The War In Iraq. Then they might get somewhere!!!
I get the impression that a lot of this so-called criticism of Stuart Craft, is just pure jealousy.
It is just slating for the sake of slating.
The left has had many defeats over the last quarter of a century, is very small and weak. Someone comes along in an organisation with an original dynamic, is relatively charismatic, appeals to working class people in his own community, not some eccentric social deviant that no-one can get along with. He is not from what I have seen from him steriotypical Red Action psychophant(grown out of hanging around in gangs and dressing as a skinhead).
Many people, from what I have met of them in Blackbird Leys are supportive of him and are sympathetic with him, including Pakistanis, Asians, West Indians & White British Working Class. This cannot be said of many of those on the left who, as far as I see come across as despising him. Perhaps if they got out of cloud cuckoo land, tried to genuinely affiniate with working class issues and not patronisingly tell the working class what their main concern should be; e.g. The War In Iraq. Then they might get somewhere!!!
Nigel said:I get the impression that a lot of this so-called criticism of Stuart Craft, is just pure jealousy.
It is just slating for the sake of slating.
The left has had many defeats over the last quarter of a century, is very small and weak. Someone comes along in an organisation with an original dynamic, is relatively charismatic, appeals to working class people in his own community, not some eccentric social deviant that no-one can get along with. He is not from what I have seen from him steriotypical Red Action psychophant(grown out of hanging around in gangs and dressing as a skinhead).
Many people, from what I have met of them in Blackbird Leys are supportive of him and are sympathetic with him, including Pakistanis, Asians, West Indians & White British Working Class. This cannot be said of many of those on the left who, as far as I see come across as despising him. Perhaps if they got out of cloud cuckoo land, tried to genuinely affiniate with working class issues and not patronisingly tell the working class what their main concern should be; e.g. The War In Iraq. Then they might get somewhere!!!
...yet you're in a Trotskyist party?
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
I am a supporter of the Socialist Party.
I see both Trotskyism and Communism, as out dated and outmoded political and ideological concepts, and have many differences with traditional SP party line, but on the whole agree with their politics and strategy. I suppose I may be considered a Trotskyist as the closest analysis to the USSR as can be seen as the concept of the degenerate workers state and have sympathy to the concept of permanent revolution; I also support the Kronstadt Uprising and see the Tenth Party Congress as being the defining move against Workers Power. However, this has limited effect in Britain in the early 21st Century.
On the whole I support the practical strategy and theory of the SP, its basic ethos and outlook and the fact that its culture is fundamentally working class.
In my personal opinion socialism, has to be inherintally democratic. And I will express an opinion that I consider to be right, not poitically convienient!!!!
I see both Trotskyism and Communism, as out dated and outmoded political and ideological concepts, and have many differences with traditional SP party line, but on the whole agree with their politics and strategy. I suppose I may be considered a Trotskyist as the closest analysis to the USSR as can be seen as the concept of the degenerate workers state and have sympathy to the concept of permanent revolution; I also support the Kronstadt Uprising and see the Tenth Party Congress as being the defining move against Workers Power. However, this has limited effect in Britain in the early 21st Century.
On the whole I support the practical strategy and theory of the SP, its basic ethos and outlook and the fact that its culture is fundamentally working class.
In my personal opinion socialism, has to be inherintally democratic. And I will express an opinion that I consider to be right, not poitically convienient!!!!
JoePolitix
Gone
Nigel said:Tell that to the middle class left: careerist labourites, ISG & SWP.
All have implied this in one way or another.
I didn't say Craft was a racist. I argued that he displayed a bigoted attitude towards the cultural rights of ethnic minority communities. Furthermore the article I linked to was irresponsible because its main target was investment for ethnic minorities and implied that the white working class in the area were victims of government ‘racism’. This sort of reasoning can only stir up divisions and resentment.
Now the likes of Sihhi et al are entitled to believe Crafts rubbish if they like but the reality of the situation is that South-Asian people suffer the highest levels of discrimination in most fields and are at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder in the U.K http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/Product.asp?vlnk=3793&Pos=1&ColRank=1&Rank=272
In a report Oxford City Council noted that one of the characteristics which makes it’s citizens especially vulnerable to poverty was the "high numbers of people from black and minority communities - particularly the South Asian Community (69% of poor children nationally are from Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities)." http://www.oxford.gov.uk/council/fight-poverty.cfm/text/1.
With regards to the Iraq war, the IWCA may not have supported the invasion but they have done nothing to oppose it either. The IWCA candidate for Mayor of London denounced the February 28th demo as a "middle class affair". Craft certainly supports the occupation and he abstained from the vote in the council to impeach Blair.
Can’t the IWCA and their cheerleaders do any better than scream ‘middle class’ at their political critics?
JoePolitix said:
I am not sure what 'cultural rights of ethnic minority communities' are, can u explain? Also if we are having 'cultural rights of ethnic minority communities' what about cultural rights for non enthnic minority communities?
Also not sure how such 'rights' do anything to tackle the issues of poverty that you talk about.
Culture and race are used by the main political parties, the ruling class and sections of the middle class to abstain on the issue of poverty and class entirely.
JoePolitix
Gone
Sorry. said:
Of course assistance should be provided to all those in poverty regardless of race etc. But if you fail to place how such poverty is distributed then it is harder to combat surely?
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
The attitude of funding one group against another is itself divisive.
Southern Asians, specifically 'Pakistani Community' are not particularly poverty stricken in Oxford. In fact they own a relatively large amount of property. A few of whom don't have a paricularly good reputation, as slum landlords. One of whom was convited recently and who had there assets taken away coerced their tennents to put up Labour Party posters in recent elections. A better answer would be better and more social housing for all.
But the only people really benefiting from, what has been termed 'multiculturalism' are the middle class careerists on £40k salaries, who have some perception of the world that is alienated from the reality of most peoples lives no matter where they are from and what colour they are or ethnic group. Making one social group more worthy than another and stirring up problems that may have partial truth and, if they do exist could be dealt with in manor that is acceptable to all, is better than the divisive tactics used by the former group of people.
Southern Asians, specifically 'Pakistani Community' are not particularly poverty stricken in Oxford. In fact they own a relatively large amount of property. A few of whom don't have a paricularly good reputation, as slum landlords. One of whom was convited recently and who had there assets taken away coerced their tennents to put up Labour Party posters in recent elections. A better answer would be better and more social housing for all.
But the only people really benefiting from, what has been termed 'multiculturalism' are the middle class careerists on £40k salaries, who have some perception of the world that is alienated from the reality of most peoples lives no matter where they are from and what colour they are or ethnic group. Making one social group more worthy than another and stirring up problems that may have partial truth and, if they do exist could be dealt with in manor that is acceptable to all, is better than the divisive tactics used by the former group of people.
JoePolitix
Gone
Chuck Wilson said:
EG the provision of Eid lights for the sizable Muslim community. Now whether or not the Muslims would want them is another matter, but Craft is opposed to them fullstop because he says they divided the working class on racial and religious grounds. How? He doesn't say.
If "Culture and race" and redundant ideas then do we abstain from issues like police racism and the treatment of asylum seekers? I guess the IWCA would answer yes to that.
JoePolitix
Gone
LLETSA said:
So there were no trade unionists or working class people at the biggest political demonstration in british history then?
JoePolitix said:
Poverty is distributed among the poor, not distributed among certain races. The non-racist provision of services targeted in light of need rather than ethnicity, in the event of disproportionate amount of poverty among certain groups, will de facto target those groups.
JoePolitix said:
Yes there were. But the IWCA is about making a difference in the here and now on issues where it is possible to have success under current circumstances. If it was content to focus on pie-in-the-sky, its members and supporters could disperse and join one or other of the leftie sects.
I would bet that there were plenty of working class people who were opposed to the war, or at least had misgivings about it, but, quite understandably, did not go on any demos because they had the nous to realise that there was no chance whatsoever of stopping it, no matter how many marched.
JoePolitix
Gone
Sorry. said:
I agree with what you write. I just object to the way the IWCA burying their heads in the sand when it comes to issues of racism etc and other wider political issues
There was an interesting debate on another forum about the Council in Oxford East here is what one contributer had to say:
http://sonowwhodowevotefor.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=234&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
I think Justin's spot-on about Andrew Smith (not an evil man, but by being in the cabinet that went to war, he's a classic example of 'letting evil triumph') and the IWCA ('lairy' is the perfect description!). They are essentially populists, with a nasty vigilantist streak on dealing with crime and drug-dealing. They use 'working class' rhetoric to avoid taking a stance on wider political issues - Matt can testify that they abstained from the vote on the council to impeach Blair, as it wasn't a 'working-class' issue (presumably they don't consider Brish squaddies working class). One of their councillors made a speach in council attacking multi-culturalism, and in particular the funding of Eid lights on Cowley Road. Again, it was all couched in 'working-class' rhetoric, but objectiely it leaves them in the same camp as Veritas. (OR, as I call them, In Vino Veritas, cos you'd have to be p***ed to vote for Kilroy-Silk)
MikeE
To be fair, Stuart's statement on the war did not support the occupation. It simply didn't support the resistance. That's a perfectly sane position, which rejects the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" approach and supports democratic opposition to the occupation instead....
Obviously I neither agreed with the bulk of his statement nor with his vote, but I think people wanting to misrepresent what he said can try a bit too hard.
Matt
Obviously I neither agreed with the bulk of his statement nor with his vote, but I think people wanting to misrepresent what he said can try a bit too hard.
Matt
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