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Al Qaeda a myth says Russian

The IRA were very real and identifiable. So were the bader meinhoff, the red wotsits, and all those other terrorist organisations.

Yet no-one knows who or where Al Q operatives are. They really do seem to belong to the inner depths of the human mind. They even live in caves.

And they never ever seem to attack their enemy. Weird.

Funny how all wars and stuff since the ww2 have been fought in non-first world countries.
 
editor said:
Firstly, there's the lingering suggestion from you that this site has some dodgy external funding which promotes some kind of hidden agenda. Could you finally clear this up for me please and explain exactly what you are implying?

Naturally, I rather resent the site's credibility, independence and honesty being attacked in this way, so I'd like the both of you to clarify your claims please so that there's no confusion for other posters.
This might help to clarify things and it's my last communication with you on the matter.
cynical_bastard said:
Have you asked the CIA for a donation to the server fund yet?
editor said:
Ssshhhh! I'm already on the payroll: $500 per binned thread with bonuses for a conspiraloon ban.
Raisin D'etre said:
If you accept the official version of 911 which holds that Osama bin Laden conspired to have planes flown into the WTC and Pentagon and all because he hates American "freedom and democracy" then you are a conspiracy theorist! And seriously, it would be interesting to know who funds this site.
 
fela fan said:
Funny how all wars and stuff since the ww2 have been fought in non-first world countries.
Like Hungary in 1956, you mean? Or the military coup in Portugal in 1974? Or the coup in Cypris in 1974? Or the 1967 Israel conflict?

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/first_world.htm

Oh, and you'd best hurry up and provide that list of posters banned this month for having the "wrong opinion" because I don't like people posting up disruptive lies about how this site is moderated.
 
Raisin D'etre said:
This might help to clarify things and it's my last communication with you on the matter.
Nope, It doesn't help clarify things at all unless you're such a bonkers nutcase that you actually believe that the CIA pays me $500 per binned thread with bonuses for a conspiraloon ban.

Surely no-one could be that stupid?!!!!

Come on Raisin: stop all this undignified wriggling and squirming and make your point.

Do you believe the CIA funds this site YES/NO?

I don't like people posting up evidence-free disruptive suggestions about how this site is unfairly moderated.
 
fela fan said:
The IRA were very real and identifiable. So were the bader meinhoff, the red wotsits, and all those other terrorist organisations.

Yet no-one knows who or where Al Q operatives are. They really do seem to belong to the inner depths of the human mind. They even live in caves.

And they never ever seem to attack their enemy. Weird.

Funny how all wars and stuff since the ww2 have been fought in non-first world countries.
They certainly do attack their "enemy", New York, Mombassa, Nairobi, Casablanca, Madrid. It's highly unlikely to be one tightly coordinated group; much more likely that it's a loose conglomeration of fundamentalist terrorist groups fueled by religion, poverty and dissatisfaction, which is what most intelligent people consider the "Al Qaeda" monicor to represent.

It wouldn't have taken an enormous amount of organisation to undertake the 911 plot, a lot yes, maybe hundreds of thousands of pounds of funding and training, but that's small fry. And it's not that surprising that most wars since WW2 have been fought outside the first world; prosperity tends to lessen the chance of war.
 
slaar said:
And it's not that surprising that most wars since WW2 have been fought outside the first world; prosperity tends to lessen the chance of war.
Bollocks - it just gives the aggressor the ability to strike outside their own land. The US has been involved in more armed conflicts than anyone else and claims to be prosperous - the propserity just ensures they can do battle away from home.
 
fela fan said:
The IRA were very real and identifiable. So were the bader meinhoff, the red wotsits, and all those other terrorist organisations.

Yet no-one knows who or where Al Q operatives are. They really do seem to belong to the inner depths of the human mind. They even live in caves.

And they never ever seem to attack their enemy. Weird.

Funny how all wars and stuff since the ww2 have been fought in non-first world countries.
You might recall Fela that one of the US's covert plans which they advertised was to stimulate terror.
Rumsfeld's influential Defense Science Board 2002 Summer Study on Special Operations and Joint Forces in Support of Countering Terrorism says in its classified "outbrief" -- a briefing drafted to guide other Pentagon agencies -- that the global war on terrorism "requires new strategies, postures and organization."

The board recommends creation of a super-Intelligence Support Activity, an organization it dubs the Proactive, Preemptive Operations Group, (P2OG), to bring together CIA and military covert action, information warfare, intelligence, and cover and deception.

Among other things, this body would launch secret operations aimed at "stimulating reactions" among terrorists and states possessing weapons of mass destruction -- that is, for instance, prodding terrorist cells into action and exposing themselves to "quick-response" attacks by U.S. forces.
P2OG
These concerns echo a statement publicly expressed by CIA Director Porter Goss who testified before the Senate in February that Iraq has become a training ground for terrorists saying: "These jihadists who survive will leave Iraq experienced in and focused on acts of urban terrorism. They represent a potential pool of contacts to build transnational terrorist cells, groups, and networks in Saudi Arabia, Jordan and other countries."
Is the End of the Iraq War in Sight?
 
Raisin D'etre said:
And another thing - there was this global outpouring of sympathy for America on 911 when 3000 people died but there has been no similar outpouring of sympathy for the 100,000 victims of the US invasion of Iraq or the uncounted dead in Afghanistan to remove mythical WMD and TWO men, Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.
I don't think this is true. Some of the largest anti-war marches the world has ever seen has taken place in response to Iraq (both before, and after the invasion). Maybe the media and world leaders etc would have us believe that American lives are worth more than Iraqi/Afghan lives, (and so quite freely talk about the victims of 9/11 far more than the victims of the USG) but I wouldn't say that on an international scale, anyone is actually buying into this.
 
Jangla said:
Bollocks - it just gives the aggressor the ability to strike outside their own land. The US has been involved in more armed conflicts than anyone else and claims to be prosperous - the propserity just ensures they can do battle away from home.
Perhaps I should have rephrased that "...on their own turf or between rich nations".
 
Yes X77, thats true but it's not been accompanied by the same orgiastic display of shock and grief in the media as 911. 100,000 dead Iraqis barely registered a blip in the media. The Lancet report received so little coverage compared to 911. With 911 we had this hour by hour estimate on the body count and were treated to the images of people falling to their deaths and so on. I was talking about the media response.
 
Raisin D'etre said:
Yes X77, thats true but it's not been accompanied by the same orgiastic display of shock and grief in the media as 911. 100,000 dead Iraqis barely registered a blip in the media. The Lancet report received so little coverage compared to 911. With 911 we had this hour by hour estimate on the body count and were treated to the images of people falling to their deaths and so on. I was talking about the media response.
Sorry, if you meant the media's response then I agree with you 100%

The media barely registering the 100,000 figure was sickening, but sadly not shocking :(
 
Raisin D'etre said:
Yes X77, thats true but it's not been accompanied by the same orgiastic display of shock and grief in the media as 911. 100,000 dead Iraqis barely registered a blip in the media. The Lancet report received so little coverage compared to 911. With 911 we had this hour by hour estimate on the body count and were treated to the images of people falling to their deaths and so on. I was talking about the media response.

IIRC wasn't the (almost worldwide) media reaction to the Lancet report to try to discredit both the methodolgy used in the survey and the people who conducted it?
Proof-positive (if any were needed) that the media is firmly in the hands of "the establishment".
 
Absolutely! And yes the methodology was refuted by Straw and Blair and the media harpies who quoted them. Media Lens has some good articles on this.
The report was met with a low-key, sceptical response, or outright silence in the media. There was no horror, no outrage. No leaders were written pointing out that, in addition to the illegality, lies and public deception, our government is responsible for the deaths of 100,000 civilians.

Scepticism is reasonable enough, of course, but there have been no debates allowing the report's authors to respond to challenges. Journalists seem uninterested in establishing whether the government's dismissal of the report might be one more cynical deception. Instead they have been happy to just move on. And to just move on in response to a mass slaughter of innocents on this scale is indeed indicative of corporate psychopathy. As Chomsky says, in their institutional roles, corporate journalists really are monsters.

At time of writing (November 2), the Lancet report has not been mentioned at all by the Observer, the Telegraph, the Sunday Telegraph, the Financial Times, the Star, the Sun and many others. The Express devoted 71 words to the report, but only in its Lancashire edition. We asked the Observer editor, Roger Alton, why his paper had failed to mention the report. He replied:

"Dear Mr Edwards,

Thanks for your note. The figures were well covered in the week, but also I find the methodology a bit doubtful..." (Email to Media Lens, November 1, 2004)


In fact, the figures were covered in two brief Guardian articles (October 29 and October 30). The second of these, entitled, 'No 10 challenges civilian death toll', focused heavily on government criticism of the report without allowing the authors to respond. The Guardian then dropped the story.

The Independent also published two articles on October 29 and 30. But these were then followed up by two articles on the subject totalling some 1,200 words in the Independent on Sunday.

The Guardian's David Aaronovitch told us:


"I have a feeling (and I could be wrong) that the report may be a dud." (Email to Media Lens, October 30, 2004)


This is the sum-total of coverage afforded by The Sunday Times:

"Tony Blair, too, may have recalled Basil Fawlty when The Lancet published an estimate that 100,000 Iraqis have died since the start of the allied invasion." (Michael Portillo, 'The Queen must not allow Germany to act like a victim,' The Sunday Times, October 31, 2004)

The Evening Standard managed two sentences:

"The emails came as a new study in The Lancet estimated 100,000 civilians had died since the conflict began. The Prime Minister's official spokesman... added that the 100,000 death toll figure could not be trusted because it was based on an extrapolation." (Paul Waugh, 'Blair "did not grasp risk to troops"', October 29, 2004)

The Times has so far restricted itself to one report on October 29. This, however, at least contradicted the growing government and media smear campaign:

"Statisticians who have analysed the data said last night that the scientists' methodology was strong and the civilian death count could well be conservative.

"They said that the work effectively disproved suggestions by US authorities that civilian bodycounts were impossible to conduct." (Sam Lister, 'Researchers claims that 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died in war,' The Times, October 29, 2004)
Media Lens
 
X-77 said:
Sorry, if you meant the media's response then I agree with you 100%

The media barely registering the 100,000 figure was sickening, but sadly not shocking :(

i thought the amount of civilians who'd died in iraq as a result of bombing and sanctions was close to 1,000,000 - since the first gulf war anyway.
 
Raisin D'etre said:
Absolutely! And yes the methodology was refuted by Straw and Blair and the media harpies who quoted them. Media Lens has some good articles on this.
Media Lens
Ah, back to the FAQ-busting cut and paste odysseys again!
:rolleyes:

If you don't either retract or support your damaging and disruptive suggestion that this site is funded by the CIA, I will take action.
 
fubert said:
i thought the amount of civilians who'd died in iraq as a result of bombing and sanctions was close to 1,000,000 - since the first gulf war anyway.
I was referring to the recent Lancet report although I am aware that the number of people killed over the years by bombings and sanctions is more like the figure you quote - and I certainly won't hold my breath for the mainstream to ever acknowledge this or express outrage at this horrendous fact.
 
fubert said:
i thought the amount of civilians who'd died in iraq as a result of bombing and sanctions was close to 1,000,000 - since the first gulf war anyway.
We do know that 500,000 children died during the years the USuk imposed sanctions on Iraq, thats the equivalent of about 5,500 911s!
 
editor said:
Ah, back to the FAQ-busting cut and paste odysseys again!
:rolleyes:

If you don't either retract or support your damaging and disruptive suggestion that this site is funded by the CIA, I will take action.

forgive me but where exactly has raisin d'etre made this suggestion ?
 
fubert said:
forgive me but where exactly has raisin d'etre made this suggestion ?
Look back through the thread and read between the lines.

Unfortunately, she refuses to actually get to the point.
 
fubert said:
i have, that's why i am asking.
FFS. Read her posts in context.

Midway through a thread on Al Qaeda and censorship she announces that she "seriously" needs to know how the site is funded and then - when pushed - requotes my joke about being paid by the CIA for deleted posts.

I've asked her about a zillion times why she is suddenly so 'interested' in the site's funding but she remains strangely reluctant to actually answer the question directly.

Others seem to have worked out her inference. Shame it seems to have passed you by.
 
editor said:
FFS. Read her posts in context.

Midway through a thread on Al Qaeda and censorship she announces that she "seriously" needs to know how the site is funded and then - when pushed - requotes my joke about being paid by the CIA for deleted posts.

I've asked her about a zillion times why she is suddenly so 'interested' in the site's funding but she remains strangely reluctant to actually answer the question directly.

Others seem to have worked out her inference. Shame it seems to have passed you by.

i still don't see anywhere where she openly suggests or even makes any form of accusation that this recieves payments or funding from the cia.

the suggestion that this site received payments from the cia was made in a joke by yourself. i just don't think it's fair to call any response she made to that disruptive, or damaging then follow that up with what some people may consider to be some sort of threat, context considered.
 
fubert said:
i still don't see anywhere where she openly suggests or even makes any form of accusation that this recieves payments or funding from the cia.

Are you really saying that, by asking the question, she hasn't suggested the answer?
 
fubert said:
i still don't see anywhere where she openly suggests or even makes any form of accusation that this recieves payments or funding from the cia.
Then why is she so reluctant to discuss a subject that she brought up and explain what she actually meant?

Any idea?

Why do you think she refused to answer a direct question on whether she thought the site was funded by the CIA?

Any idea?

Why do you think at least two other posters thought that she was clearly inferring that the site is funded by the CIA?

Any idea?

Go on. Hazard a guess or two.
 
editor said:
Ah, back to the FAQ-busting cut and paste odysseys again!
:rolleyes:

If you don't either retract or support your damaging and disruptive suggestion that this site is funded by the CIA, I will take action.

She never claimed the CIA funded your site.

And nor did i ever claim you'd banned anyone in the last month.
 
editor said:
Then why is she so reluctant to discuss a subject that she brought up and explain what she actually meant?

Any idea?

Why do you think she refused to answer a direct question on whether she thought the site was funded by the CIA?

Any idea?

Why do you think at least two other posters thought that she was clearly inferring that the site is funded by the CIA?

Any idea?

Go on. Hazard a guess or two.

i'm sorry but what does any of the above have to do with what could be perceived as a threat being issued over speculation as to what a person may or may not have meant ? there's a direct accusation being made about a poster making disruptive and damaging comments, which i at least cannot find any direct evidence of, and these accusations have been supplemented with what could be seen as initimidation.
 
editor said:
Look back through the thread and read between the lines.

But that's exactly the problem isn't it.

Try reading the lines, not in between them, where only one's perceptions that appear through one's own filter occur.

You often state you're keen on not going off-topic. Do you think that russian was correct in stating Al Q is a myth?
 
fubert said:
i'm sorry but what does any of the above have to do with what could be perceived as a threat being issued over speculation as to what a person may or may not have meant ? there's a direct accusation being made about a poster making disruptive and damaging comments, which i at least cannot find any direct evidence of, and these accusations have been supplemented with what could be seen as initimidation.

Seconded.
 
fela fan said:
She never claimed the CIA funded your site.

pretty clear implication I'd say

fela fan said:
And nor did i ever claim you'd banned anyone in the last month.

which is not what you're being asked; you said the editor is "increasingly ready to ban those that have the wrong opinion", which is a claim that rather asks for some sort of justification to back it up... but, oh yes, I was forgetting that you don't "do" evidence
 
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