two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
That same vast majority also know what's meant by capitalism and, again quite consciously, have accepted it.
This vast majority hasn't
That same vast majority also know what's meant by capitalism and, again quite consciously, have accepted it.
We are only delusional to you because you specifically reject class consciousness. It don't exist, its a fiction of the mind, a fantasy in your estimation, despite the fact there are thousands of workers who are living proof there is such a thing as class consciousness.
This vast majority hasn't
I don't thin they've accepted it so much as it's just The Way Things Work.
That is a barefaced lie: you promise the moon, the stars and the sun over and over again, you promise you know best, better than all the rest, you promise you are the genuine article, the one and only, then, now and into the future, genuine article.
Unfortunately you have no means of getting anywhere, besides more promise laden flights of fancy. You have no proof of your cleverness, just circular assertions to that effect. You have no guarantee of your genuineness, besides the ones penned by yourselves; a bit like the glowing reviews of your own publications which you also go in for.
But don't let any of that stop you puking up more demands to lead the working class into the light and on to heaven. I know it won't.
Back to work now - Louis Macneice
so only a subset of the population has actually thought about any of this stuff? the rest are what, too thick or something?
I'm sorry, I don't believe a word of it.
Start a conversation with anybody about capitalism and socialism and they'll know what you're talking about. There's a very high probability that what they say will be supportive of capitalism.
Sorry, worse is the wrong word. I meant irrelevant.
What exactly would change?
They'd still go to work, go out with their mates, have a family/gf, have the odd holiday, live in a house, eat food, watch telly, do stuff they like in their spare time, raise kids.
so only a subset of the population has actually thought about any of this stuff? the rest are what, too thick or something?
I'm sorry, I don't believe a word of it.
Start a conversation with anybody about capitalism and socialism and they'll know what you're talking about. There's a very high probability that what they say will be supportive of capitalism.
There would be quite a lot more than you are suggesting here. For instance, they would not only be the active decision makers on your list of activities but also be actively involved in putting them into affect. And come to think of it IMO the odd holiday would not occur for every single day would be a holiday, with work and leisure as we know it being a thing of the past along with the alienation associated with it.
What most people understand as socialism is the experiences of Russia, etc, where state capitalism reigned. Socialism is a society without classes, a state, money, waged labour, profit, borders, leaders, trade, markets, etc. In short, the complete opposite of capitalism. When as this comparison been put to the majority of workers? Never!
Give it a rest, Louis. Your rhetorical flourishes are really getting a bit dull and dont really connect with the argument at all
definitely duller contributions
good.
what is it to do with then, why has the great majority thought about capitalism and socialism and accepted the former as being as natural as breathing?
I see what you are referring to. I just meant U75 anarchists dont respond, I have since learned you are not an anarchist.Nah I'm right on this one - it was your post 1467, only a throw-away comment though.
Yup, that why U75@ are frightened to discuss their 'tactics',,,, I think.Ah but having a driver would go against the whole idea of u75 anarchism surely - you'd instead have to have one person with foot on accelerator, one on brake, someone steering, and everyone else fighting over where we are on the map and where we actually want to go
to deal with the entrenched views part first.So, to answer your question.As I say I’m not an anarchist and what I’d like to see is almost outside politics. The trouble with political parties is that they have entrenched views. They have their own view of the world which seem based on emotional decisions, and try to impose that on society.
that is exactly the type of way of doing things, that communism is supposed to be. It is about the rationality of organized planning of the economy, where production is based upon human need of everybody, rather than the profits of the minority. For me Marxism is scientific, this is why what the anarchists sa about consciousness doesn't make any sense. It is unscientific. See next post.>I tend to see the problems we have as the effects of ‘the system’ rather than being caused by individuals – I’d be acting just the way that businessmen do in the situation they’re in – you can’t not act in that way because if you did you’d be out of a job. What we actually need is to improve the ‘system’, and the person who really seems to have understood that is W. Edwards Deming. The language he uses is acceptable to business but is actually empowering for workers.
To improve a system you work backwards from the outcomes you want. You Evaluate what we need against what we’ve got, Plan how to get where you want to go, then Do it while Checking progress and Adopting the new system /Amending it or Abandoning it if it actually totally fucks up. And you work on a small scale to test out what you’re doing.And yes it's a statement of the bleeding obvious but no fucker does it.
Personally, I’d like to see some attempt to ‘model’ the economic and social factors that go to make people happy and fulfilled (hours worked, commuting distance, pay, size of house/garden, size of family, conditions in neighbourhood etc etc etc). Then you can look at your resources and see how you can best spread them round to get the outcomes you want. Effectively you feed the data into a computer and press a large button on the front labeled ‘Optimise’ that would redistribute resources to best effect for the majority.
Now I quite realize that this isn’t going to work – nothing ever does. The temptation with political systems then is to look for scapegoats, but the correct response is ‘what is wrong with the system?’
For me the answer is obvious. Who became conscious the sun an the stars did not orbit the Earth it was vice versa, why did they do that, and what have they used it for? Scientific consciousness and class consciousness has developed in the same way.I'm not asking for examples of people you consider to have been class conscious I want you to tell me who came up with the concept, the yard stick by which consciousness or lack of it is measured and what for.
Are you an anarchist? if so, how can you say that your being conscious of the need of the working class, for classless society means nothing at all???? And that not enough working class sharing your conscious of this need for classless society, to make it a reality today, means nothing at all????So everyone is class conscious then? It means nothing at all.
No, you're delusional. I don't think one single worker has come to you and said that you're "genuine expression of class consciousness."
I suspect what you mean is that there are workers who have come to you and said they agree with you and want to join. Not the same thing at all.
I didn't say just thatYou've described CC as awareness that there are classes - means nothing at all, it's useless.
Class/classes have always existed, as long as society has existed. Like the sun the stars and the earth, they have existed whether or not men have been conscious of their movements, causes and effects. The discovery of classes was not made to create a yardstick of intellectual inferiority and superiority, it was discovered from observation. Can you name a society where a tiny minority have controlled the means of production, and have not therefore controlled society. As far as I know, every time the society has had a minority owning a controlling the means of production, they have had a ruling class. That is not made up, it is fact.
The reason it was discovered, like any other scientific discovery, was curiosity. The search for truth and understanding. BUT,,,,, it is NOT just a means to understand the past, but away to, and guide to how to change the future, and in the direction we should change it.
Class consciousness, is about class awareness.... That is it really. Having class consciousness does not make you inferior or superior, just more aware of the relationship of classes to the society's of the past and present, and what the alternative is to capitalism. How can you say class consciousness doesn't exist, without saying classes do not exist? The very fact that anarchists are aware of the need for a society without classes, means they are class conscious. Even those who were not aware of this, the chartists mentioned earlier, have been referred to by historians as "the first flowering of working class consciousness".
that is just repeating what I have just said. You haven't answered "Are you an anarchist? if so, how can you say that your being conscious of the need of the working class, for classless society means nothing at all???? And that not enough working class sharing your conscious of this need for classless society, to make it a reality today, means nothing at all?"As has been said before on this thread by me for one at least once - the class struggle is ongoing and everyone is a participant whether they explicitly think of it in those terms or not. CC is nothing.
Every single day would be a holiday? With work and leisure as we know it being a thing of the past? Seriously?
Will there be unicorns?