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George Monbiot on "Wales' unreported revolution"

Gravediggers said:
Not at all a case of misanthropy or vanguardism. The poster lewislewis is obviously voting Plaid because he perceives them has the best of a bad lot, which is no more than the majority of voters will be doing on election day. He like a lot of welsh voters will be expecting them to keep to their promises, or least the best bits. All I merely pointed out was not for him to raise his expectations to high with Plaid like all the major parties have only one mindset - capitalism.

I have never told any member of the working class what they must do. I've stated my opinion which I'm entitled to do and made it clear it is their choice on which party to support. We have no leaders in the SPGB all policy is decided by the membership as a whole.
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You characterised the mass of the working class as a herd - and counter-posed them to the already enlightened self-elected elite of the SPGB.That's simply lumpen-leninism. Mr Buick will be wanting words.
 
Gravediggers said:
Not at all a case of misanthropy or vanguardism. The poster lewislewis is obviously voting Plaid because he perceives them has the best of a bad lot, which is no more than the majority of voters will be doing on election day.
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It's not so much that they're 'the best of a bad lot', it's more that they are not like the others, and that i've come to this point of view after almost a decade of on-off experience of them. There is something genuine there. There are enough genuine community values (which Monbiot writes about) that I have seen Plaid people act upon with my own eyes, for me to actively support them and participate in their movement.
 
lewislewis said:
It's not so much that they're 'the best of a bad lot', it's more that they are not like the others, and that i've come to this point of view after almost a decade of on-off experience of them. There is something genuine there. There are enough genuine community values (which Monbiot writes about) that I have seen Plaid people act upon with my own eyes, for me to actively support them and participate in their movement.
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Well, if you believe that you'll believe anything. The crunch will come if they ever have to run capitalism and then you'll discover that they really are no different. After all, if they've been elected on that mandate they'll have no option, no matter how many "genuine community values" they possess. In the meantime, best of luck with your delusions! :p
 
whichfinder said:
Well, if you believe that you'll believe anything. The crunch will come if they ever have to run capitalism and then you'll discover that they really are no different. After all, if they've been elected on that mandate they'll have no option, no matter how many "genuine community values" they possess. In the meantime, best of luck with your delusions! :p
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Sweden and the US both run capitalism. Are they no different?
 
whichfinder said:
Well, if you believe that you'll believe anything. The crunch will come if they ever have to run capitalism and then you'll discover that they really are no different. After all, if they've been elected on that mandate they'll have no option, no matter how many "genuine community values" they possess. In the meantime, best of luck with your delusions! :p
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What's your practical alternatives?
 
editor said:
Anything much useful happened in the last ten years, or are you consigned to reliving your (perceived) glories from the past forever?

You're quick to criticise and damn other parties, but what have you actually done to help people? And how do you intend to engage normal people who haven't the time to wade through your endless and often baffling rhetoric?

Here's something tangible that Plaid Cymru managed in the real world:
So, how about your lot? What have you got?
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In the last ten years we've published the Socialist Standard on a monthly basis, besides publishing pamphlets on climate change, religion, genetics and human behaviour, parliamentarism (to name but a few), held numerous meetings and debates, attended demonstrations, distributed thousands of leaflets, made a DVD, contested elections, letters to the press, attended meetings held by our opponents, set up blogs and forums on the internet and made ourselves known on threads like this, made contact with the Zeitgeist Movement, etc. Given our limited resources we do what we can when we can.

What we have done to help people globally is to explain a basic fact of life i.e. capitalism does not work in the interest of the majority. On a local level socialist are involved in all manner of community affairs on a voluntary basis providing advice on numerous subjects from school boards to benefit advice.

What do you find 'baffling' about the socialist case. I agree it may be intricate to some but our general experience is that most workers are fully aware that profits come from the exploitation of labour power and that a wealthy few have control on the political system.

In regards to NACODS using their political muscle in the form of Bleddyn Hancock who is a member of Plaid putting pressure on central government to rectify workers grievances what do you find suprising about that for it is normal business for the trade unions. However, has Bleddyn acknowledged in the press release the trade union movement is always on the defensive and the struggle is never ending. And in truth any compensation gained is derisory and pitiful in comparison to the millions and millions that have been made by the fat cats.
 
In brief, you've cast yourself in the role of teachers and truth-bringers. A more vanguardist relation to the w/c you could not find. You really sound like you're stuck in the first two decades of the last century.
 
existentialist said:
I think someone's succeeded in inventing a machine where you wind the handle and PR comes out. It's almost smooth, no lumps. Quite plausible at a casual glance.

But, like all the best PR, by the time you've brushed away the puff and the justifications, there's not actually anything left.
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Like what??????? Where's your evidence other than a brief dismissal? If indeed it is the case, "there's not actually anything left" what the heck are you doing replying to this thread?

I just love moronic replies cos they are so easy to dispose of.
 
butchersapron said:
In brief, you've cast yourself in the role of teachers and truth-bringers. A more vanguardist relation to the w/c you could not find. You really sound like you're stuck in the first two decades of the last century.
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Actually, we acknowledge, "That even the educators need educating". Karl Marx If we make mistakes quite rightfully we admit to it. All we do is put the case for socialism and let the workers decide on the rights or wrongs of the case. Unlike the left wing we find no need to lie, be deceitful, manipulate or condescending. We state our case and let think it out for themselves.

How you equate that with vanguardism beats me.
 
JimN said:
Is that a genuine quote from Gravediggers?

Editing doesn't involve changing the meaning of what someone is writing and wrapping it up to appear like a quote.
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Corrected for you Jim.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

p.s. although I would contend that I have retained the meaning...just cut down on the insubstantial froth.
 
Gravediggers said:
Actually, we acknowledge, "That even the educators need educating". Karl Marx If we make mistakes quite rightfully we admit to it. All we do is put the case for socialism and let the workers decide on the rights or wrongs of the case. Unlike the left wing we find no need to lie, be deceitful, manipulate or condescending. We state our case and let think it out for themselves.

How you equate that with vanguardism beats me.
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But you do feel the need to write favourable reviews of your own products; just so we're clear.

Louis MacNeice
 
Gravediggers said:
Actually, we acknowledge, "That even the educators need educating". Karl Marx If we make mistakes quite rightfully we admit to it. All we do is put the case for socialism and let the workers decide on the rights or wrongs of the case. Unlike the left wing we find no need to lie, be deceitful, manipulate or condescending. We state our case and let think it out for themselves.

How you equate that with vanguardism beats me.
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Because you've found the answer already - all that remains is for the workers to realise that you're entirely correct, well in advance of them. Who put you in advance - if you recognise that you ('the educators') need educating, who educated you? Who selected you? Why are you in the position of 'the educators'?
 
butchersapron said:
You characterised the mass of the working class as a herd - and counter-posed them to the already enlightened self-elected elite of the SPGB.That's simply lumpen-leninism. Mr Buick will be wanting words.
Click to expand...

Of course the herd mentality exists in capitalism and the ruling class depends on it cos they know full well that once we start thinking for ourselves they will have lost the plot.

I can assure you the whole of the membership of the SPGB (including comrade Buick) will agree with every word I've said on this thread.
 
Louis MacNeice said:
Corrected for brevity and clarity.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice
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If you want to correct what someone has written the honest thing to do is to quote what they actually wrote and then post how you think it requires correction. The honest thing to do is to be clear who is saying what. Your post still claims that Gravediggers wrote something that they did not.
 
Gravediggers said:
In the last ten years we've published the Socialist Standard on a monthly basis, besides publishing pamphlets on climate change, religion, genetics and human behaviour, parliamentarism (to name but a few), held numerous meetings and debates, attended demonstrations, distributed thousands of leaflets, made a DVD, contested elections, letters to the press, attended meetings held by our opponents, set up blogs and forums on the internet and made ourselves known on threads like this, made contact with the Zeitgeist Movement, etc. Given our limited resources we do what we can when we can.

What we have done to help people globally is to explain a basic fact of life i.e. capitalism does not work in the interest of the majority. On a local level socialist are involved in all manner of community affairs on a voluntary basis providing advice on numerous subjects from school boards to benefit advice. .
Click to expand...
So in terms of providing real world, practical help to workers, you've done precisely nothing apart from trumpet your own beliefs through small print runs of self published magazines and a handful of little-visited websites which are predominately read by people who are already agree with you, yes?

Can you point me to some of your triumphs for workers in the real world from, say, the last ten years or so?
 
JimN said:
If you want to correct what someone has written the honest thing to do is to quote what they actually wrote and then post how you think it requires correction. The honest thing to do is to be clear who is saying what. Your post still claims that Gravediggers wrote something that they did not.
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All that Gravedigger cites as achievement were examples of the SPGB spreading their word; care to show me where that isn't the case. Indeed given the party's principles how could it be otherwise. If you don't like the message don't blame me, take it up with the SPGB; afterall they started it all those failure filled years ago.

Louis MacNeice
 
Gravediggers said:
Unlike the left wing we find no need to lie, be deceitful, manipulate or condescending. We state our case and let think it out for themselves.
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Ah. So you think you're morally superior to anyone who doesn't hold the same political views as yourselves, because if they're on the left and not nodding along to what you're saying, then they can be safely dismissed as "deceitful, manipulate or condescending" liars.

What's your current paid-up membership, by the way?
 
Louis MacNeice said:
All that Gravedigger cites as achievement were examples of the SPGB spreading their word; care to show me where that isn't the case. Indeed given the party's principles how could it be otherwise. If you don't like the message don't blame me, take it up with the SPGB; afterall they started it all those failure filled years ago.

Louis MacNeice
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You've just demonstrated that you are capable of quoting accurately, so please tell me why you quoted, and continue to quote, Gravediggers falsely.
 
Gravediggers said:
Of course the herd mentality exists in capitalism and the ruling class depends on it cos they know full well that once we start thinking for ourselves they will have lost the plot.

I can assure you the whole of the membership of the SPGB (including comrade Buick) will agree with every word I've said on this thread.
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I have never once read or heard Buick take such a disparaging view of the working class or such an elevated view of the role of your party as you have here. Nor have i ever seen him put forward such clunky mechanical 2nd international style thinking.
 
JimN said:
You've just demonstrated that you are capable of quoting accurately, so please tell me why you quoted, and continue to quote, Gravediggers falsely.
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I think he summed up the spirit quite well you miserable bastards. I honestly don't think the recent spate of SPGB interventions on here have done you any favours at all.
 
JimN said:
You've just demonstrated that you are capable of quoting accurately, so please tell me why you quoted, and continue to quote, Gravediggers falsely.
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Because I don't have your finely developed sense of humour Jim, that's why.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice
 
Louis MacNeice said:
Corrected for you Jim.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

p.s. although I would contend that I have retained the meaning...just cut down on the insubstantial froth.
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You have done no such thing cos you haven't even edited your post.

Moderator what are you going to do about this blatant disregard for the rules?
 
Gravediggers said:
Like what??????? Where's your evidence other than a brief dismissal? If indeed it is the case, "there's not actually anything left" what the heck are you doing replying to this thread?

I just love moronic replies cos they are so easy to dispose of.
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I think you've just demonstrated admirably that there's nothing left. From proudly boasting that the SPGB has been in existence for over a hundred years, you're reduced to quibbling about whether a few pamphlets is a valid contribution or not.

In between making grandiose pronouncements to redefine terms in a way that suits you so that your precious theories can stand unchallenged, that is. And I think you've probably scored a few own goals right there too.

If I were a working class person, and I was reading what you're writing here, I'd feel, above all, patronised. So I think your organisation's grand scheme has fallen at the first hurdle. And appears to have continued doing so for...ooh, over a century :).
 
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