It's a googlewhack!
Meanwhile, preparations building for the West Bank to kick off:
So what is the occupying force planning that it wants not to be witnessed?
Has Netanyahu over played his hand?
- Thread starter Melinda
- Start date
It's a googlewhack!
Meanwhile, preparations building for the West Bank to kick off:
So what is the occupying force planning that it wants not to be witnessed?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
It's a googlewhack!
Meanwhile, preparations building for the West Bank to kick off:
So what is the occupying force planning that it wants not to be witnessed?
one of those villages wouldn't be wadi fuqeen would it laptop? i only ask because my local branch of PSC was twinned with them, i was menat to go out there at some point during the next efw years
Not unless that's a synonym for Bilin or Nilin (Bil'in or Nil'in).
There have been weekly protests against the Wall in these places going on from the first intifada, determinedly peaceful on the Palestinian side apart from the impossibility of stopping the shabab (yoot) throwing a few rocks.
The rest of your post is fair comment, but is this the level of debate people use in here ffs.
not having a go at either of you btw 
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
No, they're not.
Israelis are like the German people in the 1930s. It's the Zionist-nationalists and the upper echelons of the government that equate more conveniently to "Nazis". Don't make the error of conflating the state with the people.
Yes, well unfortunately some people still believe, against reason, that the USA is rendering assistance toward peace rather than consolidating their links with the state of Israel.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Not usually. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to pull people up for such inaccurate generalisations. We had one poster who consistently conflated "Jews" with "Israelis" and "Israel" with the actions of "the state of Israel".
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
to be honest, I'm not really entirely sure you can equate zionism to nazism, you can, but it is unhelpful to make the comparison. i've said here many times that israel can legitimately be described as a fascist state, but comparing it to nazis and the holocaust frequently just alienates the people we're trying to get on side. israel is bad enough without doing that ffs.
I understand your anger, and I can see in some respects where that analogy comes from, but its not accurate IMO. I see this as putting as many roadblocks as possibl
on the path to peace, and its a show of strength from a right wing government that isn't going to be pushed down a road it is clearly being forced to go down.
Its in Israeli rights interest that they wind Hamas up to organise the stone chucking mobs, the more of that there is, the more support is likely to go there way.The more they ratchet up that pressure the longer Hamas are likely to be around.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I'm not equating "zionism to nazism", though. I'm equating a particular strand of nationalist Zionism to Nazism. A small distinction, but an important one, because not all Zionists and not all Zionisms carry the same amount of hate-fuelled malice as that supported by fat Benni and his nuttier coalition partners and supporters.
State and social practice in some areas of Israeli life echo fascism, sure, and any comparison of the subjugation of Palestinians to the shoah are fanciful (thankfully), but the use of certain tactics by the state of Israel (de facto ghettoisation, expropriation without proper recompense, differential justice etc) in pursuit of a Zionist-nationalist agenda leaves the state of Israel wide open to comparison of of those tactics with the state that practiced them most widely in the 20th century under a similar "racially exclusivist" agenda.
They've made the rod for their own backs.
They've made the rod for their own backs.
And few citizens of Israel can say "we didn't know". They've been there, on the checkpoints if they're not very bright...
I think its fair to say that we see similar patterns of behaviour among all governments ruled with right wing nationalist politics (protectionism, expansionism, persecution of minorities) obviously hitlers lot took that to the extreme.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Of course it is the Israeli state I am talking about not the people.
However, Netanyahu was elected I believe. I didn't see too many mass demonstrations against the Israeli destruction of Gaza. I didn't see too many protests by Israeli's against the expansion of settlements. I don't see too many protests at the siege which is starving an entire people. I don's see too many demonstrations against Israeli's brutality now.
The comparison with the Nazis has ruffled some feathers. Well what else describes the policy of ethnic cleansing of an entire people. The collective punishments, the land seizures, the apartheid citizenship laws, the checkpoints, the walls, the house destructions, the torture, the assassinations, the systematic driving of an entire people off their land?
Nazis.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It's not "ruffled feathers", it's the fact that if you can't be arsed to set out your argument coherently, then you give people an opportunity to write off what you're saying, and giving those same people the opportunity to tar any similar arguments, even ones that are more coherent and less generalised, with the same brush.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
But the question still remains. How is the behaviour of the IDF any different to the counter insurgency methods of the Nazi's in occupied Europe?
The Collective punishments, the utter contempt for the lives of civilians, the the destruction of land and the demolition of houses and water wells. The use of illegal weapons,
How is the forced expulsion of an entire people from their land, solely on the basis of their nationality, any different to the forced expulsion of those deemed "enemies" by the Nazis?
Does the physical and cultural destruction of the Palestinians conform to a definition of ethnic cleansing. The attempt to drive an entire people from their land? I think it does.
The writer of the above. William I Robinson was threatened with prosecution for saying this. It is however the truth.
All of those could be ascribed to successive non-nazi British governments over the years. There are power plays going on on all sides, its a complex situation with all sides trying to out-maneouvre each other.
As for protests do you have any basis for that claim? Or is it simply argumentative conjecture?
What impact do you think protests would have on an aggressive long-term political strategy when there is so much fear and hate on both sides plus religious bobbins thrown in for good measure?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
The Nazis rarely needed the fig-leaf of counter-insurgency tactics to do that sort of thing. they did it regardless.
The Nazis didn't expel. They liquidated, over a relatively short period of time and on an industrialised scale.
It's an opinion that (fortunately)hasn't been brought to fruition.
You seem to be missing the point that although your analogy is, to a degree, apposite, it's an analogy that makes uninformed people sympathetic to the state of Israel. Give them hard detail instead of emotive rhetoric and they have less wriggle room in which to feel sympathy for the nationalist-Zionists and their supporters.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Yep. The state of Israel learned those tactics, as practiced by the Mandate authorities, from us.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Well of course that's true but it seems the Israeli's care less and less about "fig leaves either these days.
True but the question still remains, does Israel's policy towards the Palestinians equal cultural genocide? I am loathe to use such an emotive word but how else to describe the systematic attempt to destroy the physical, material and cultural identity of the Palestinian people. I have used the word ethnic cleansing and I think this is accurate. So what is the difference? That the Israeli's haven't liquidated the Palestinians? No they haven't but they have come pretty close to destroying them as a people. This is not extermination, it is physical and cultural dislocation. It is ethnic cleansing.
Not yet but as we are witnessing right now, the process continues.
Ok this is an argument that is powerful and leaves me struggling for a reply. You are saying don't give your enemies weapons with which to use against us. But surely there comes a point when what is should be described as what is? Gerald Kaufman put it brilliantly recently when he said that an IDF officer who shrugged off 500 civilian deaths as "mostly militants" was talking like a Nazi. How else to describe this callous disregard for civilian life?
little_legs
Поехали!
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Please. prove me wrong. I lived in Tel Aviv in the 90's. There are decent ordinary Israeli's of course. But they are often in a minority. I had a friend who was involved in the "Peace Now group" he would tell me how he was routinely called a traitor and abused when demonstrating.
Israeli's have stood up against the zionist machine before. Most notably during the first invasion of Lebanon. There is also a very active conscientious objector movement. Nevertheless, ordinary Israeli soldiers committed war crimes in Gaza too.
And, after Lebanon, they still elected that murdering shit Sharon despite Sabra and Shatila
In case anyone forgets what that was
http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-fisk180903.htm
And people express outrage because I compare the Israeli state to the Nazi's?
And in case anyone doubts Israels responsibility for this crime
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Lots of people have expressed disquiet that I compare the actions of the IDF to the Nazis. I think the analogy is accurate.This is not a two sided conflict. This is a deliberate and systematic programme to destroy the palestinian people as a people. Ethnic cleansing
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
The analogy is accurate dylans, but it is too sensitive to be made carelessly, as you have just amply demonstrated. If you want to make the comparison, explain it. You have now done this and don't need to justify yourself any further - just don't chuck it into the discussion and assume everyone will take it that you're well-informed on the subject instead of just throwing lazy language around.
I honestly don't believe the average israeli supports state terrorism any more than anyone else. I do believe that they feel they have the right to defend themselves. Nationalist ideologies feed off fear so the Israeli government click their fingers, the militants respond in a predictable manner, keeping the fear levels raised, and the vcious deadly circle continues.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
Are the Serbs Nazis as well, then?
Similar threads
