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SWP split?

This just proves the german 'dispute' was set up for this end and smith fell into the trap.

Reckon they'll call themselves the international socialists or the cliff re-enactment league.
The counterfire website has the message 'back soon'.

https://www.counterfire.org/
 
a rare picture has emerged of Martin Smith preventing the fair lindsey from going to newcastle (m' lord Callinicos in the background)
jabba-leia-throneroom.jpg
 
Fedayn said:
42 SWP members explain why they're resigning
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Pathetic Doomed. Hopeless. Stupid, about sums up the British Left from the Communist Party Of Grate Britain in the 1930,s they have hold the crass thought Labour and Now New Labour would be the emancipation of the working class, the only good thing to have come from them are solid Anarchist but we are neither without out our own cultish people and sectarianism, there is a grate deal of thought as to why as Anarchist we are not organised, this aside yes agreed I keep banging on with this one we need have a mass DONT VOTE campaign this will engage with The Working Class introduce them to Anarchist thought practice, look back at history it has a habit of repeating itself there is nothing new just as predictable as the left, when capitalism is in crises they feel to respond give any solution because the truth they have none but its reform in this regard they fail The Working Class will keep doing so here is our opportunity have we the same fear of freedom ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fear_of_Freedom) or are we going to act/respond lets push towards the dawn of Anarchy it is simple we either take now or stay the same lets begin right here right now to build a mass DONT VOTE campaign winning the trust respect of The Working Class and of course each other we are the many they are the few..
 
Nigel Irritable said:
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Yes, a member of the Socialist Party resigned to join Labour. Such things happen - in an organisation of above a dozen or so, people will sometimes change their minds about things. In Phil's case he has come to the conclusion that socialists should go back into the Labour Party. I think he's very wrong on that, but if that's what he thinks then that's where he should go. Time will tell who is right.

Phil isn't, to my knowledge, claiming that he was mistreated - far from it. He has a different political perspective.
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No Mistreatment insinuated Nige.

The whole Trotskyist left is in a mess and I think it ironic that in a debate about the SWP splitting we ignore faults in other ranks.

Nigel, this is because the Trotskyist left is far removed from what is happening amongst the working class dont you think?

SWP 40 odd members split

Who really cares.

Same perspective applies to the SP even though in this case we have a prominent SP blogger jumping ship.

Nigel. Why arent the Trotskyist left successfull in the UK?

You say time will tell who is right. Can we say every thing will be proven in our lifetime?
 
nightbreed said:
Same perspective applies to the SP even though in this case we have a prominent SP blogger jumping ship.
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Well, if you mean that someone leaving a small organisation or a split in a small organisation aren't exactly world shattering events, you are certainly right.

It's certainly been a very difficult period for the left - class consciousness has retreated, there have been major, disastrous setbacks for the workers movement nationally and internationally. The far left, oddly enough, has probably shrunk less than the old left reformism. One consequence of that is that we are even more isolated - our nearest political neighbours have left the field and it's a much longer jump to todays "social democratic" left.

To a large extent these are events beyond the capacity of small organisation to prevent. Things have however been slowly picking up. There has been a very limited, sectional, small, industrial revival. Organisations like the Socialist Party are growing. But we are a long way from having the kind of social weight that would allow us to be a real political force.

I think that this economic crisis will be prolonged. I don't think that it inevitably means some drastic upturn in militancy or some short term breakthrough for the far left is on the cards. But I think it will present opportunities to start putting socialist ideas back on the agenda of a more substantial part of the working class.
 
some posh double barelled names in that resignation list, not exactly the workers party,


btw, no resignations from sheffield though, too far gone that lot
 
This is the age old problem with the trot left. Democratic centralism simply doesn't work. Instead disagreements are quickly elevated to crisis levels and the inevitable splits. The SWP have been better than most at holdiing themselves together over the years but even they have become a monty python sketch.

The problem is disagreements in leninist organisations are quickly framed in class terms. They are reformist or centrist or ultraleftist and therefore they quicly become fundamental ideological chasms. This is all very amusing while these groups don't enjoy political power. In power however it would be the firing squad
 
Nigel Irritable said:
...
It will also be interesting to see who comes sniffing around, trying to get into their political knickers. My money is on Socialist Resistance, despite the recent bad blood, being the keenest to try it on.
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There will not be any formal statement or approach to the new grouping from Socialist Resistance, still less any "trying it on".

The value of a correct approach to party democracy and the united front is best shown in practice, rather than through secret diplomacy.
 
In recent days we've had a neo NAZI organization all over the media with an old story that a racist old sikh may join them. And what has been in the media about the biggest grouping on the revolutionary left and its 'woe'? Nowt!

ResistanceMP3 said:
Wow! Another scintillating meeting of the train spotters~!:facepalm:
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ResistanceMP3 said:
Shurrrly Harmans death warrants the resurrecting the of this trainspotters thread.
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ResistanceMP3 said:
Fucking hell, I bet your keyboards barely working! What with the usual spittle, and now the ejaculate.:D
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ResistanceMP3 said:
Whole threads been nothing but whiney train spotters tilting at windmills.
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The real world, quite rightly, has no interest in the machinations of the tiny insignificant revolutionary left. This is not politics, it is hobbyism.
 
belboid said:
the saddest thing is, you probably are so dumb you actually think that that was a clever comment!
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no, vaguely amusing to point out you have nothing politicaly to offer. Don't worry, you're not alone.

I think butchers has neatly pointed out some of your analytical failings on this thread.
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what analysis? All I have done is take the piss out of train spotters.

What makes this thread worse, it if we were to discuss the politics of why these insignificant little grouping is having trouble, I would find interesting. But that ain't gonna happen.
 
butchersapron said:
Bizarre defence of your favoured grouping -even by your usual standards.
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tried to explain to many many times, I have no interest in defending an organisation I left ten years ago. I bet you have read more of their publications in that time that I have. It is just when people make stuff up, resort to a conspiracy theories, or masquerade character assassination as politics, I point it out. If people like Louis/you want to say/believe I'm lying, what can I do?
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
Seriously, can you point to one post in this thread that looks at the politics involved, rather than just the characters involved? I freely admit, I may have missed it.
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Just look at the first pages for a whole host of examples. What you really mean when is that there's been no explanations given in your favoured strangled trot speak that you agree with, that argue along the cod-psychological lines you're familiar with - like - a small party fighting against capitalist domination will inevitably find itself pulling in different directions, the pressure to adapt to existing conditions, unabke to adpt to chnaged conditions, to grasp the new perspective etc etc -you can get your fill of that sort of handy to use in every case and therefore useless explanation over on SUN, the place is drowning in them.

The simple fact of the matter is there's no real substantive political differences here and the desperate attempts to conjure some up on both sides is laughable - it's a property fight, pure and simple.
 
butchersapron said:
Just look at the first pages for a whole host of examples. What you really mean when is that there's been no explanations given in your favoured strangled trot speak that you agree with, that argue along the cod-psychological lines you're familiar with - like - a small party fighting against capitalist domination will inevitably find itself pulling in different directions, the pressure to adapt to existing conditions, unabke to adpt to chnaged conditions, to grasp the new perspective etc etc -you can get your fill of that sort of handy to use in every case and therefore useless explanation over on SUN, the place is drowning in them.

The simple fact of the matter is there's no real substantive political differences here and the desperate attempts to conjure some up on both sides is laughable - it's a property fight, pure and simple.
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And the insignificant nature of the revolutionary left in this country is down to personalities as well?
 
Did i argue that? It's perfectly possible for personality clashes to become magnified due to the insignificant nature of the revolutionary left without that insignificance being primarily or wholly a result of those personalities.
 
butchersapron said:
Did i argue that? It's perfectly possible for personality clashes to become magnified due to the insignificant nature of the revolutionary left without that insignificance being primarily or wholly a result of those personalities.
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no you didn't, and that is why I asked the question, to clarify it.

So you do accept it is possible for personality clashes to become magnified due to the state of the class struggle. That the state and the nature of the class struggle is a major part of the discussion, if not the determinate part. Well done, I think we can agree for once. Well partially, anyway.


butchersapron said:
.

The simple fact of the matter is there's no real substantive political differences here and the desperate attempts to conjure some up on both sides is laughable - it's a property fight, pure and simple.
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As I say, I have paid little mind to the swp publications etc and current affairs politics in the last 10 years. I do go to Marxism, but its tourism, hobbyism, rather than a serious political interest. However,,,,, just reading Germans few hundered word resignation explanation, made it abundantly clear to me which side I was on.

It's more than coincidental that the Smiths faction, according to Germans resignation explanation, have come to a conclusion that I was musing on here several years ago, that the "united front of a special kind" was a cancer that needed cutting out of the party. I have no doubt whatsoever that Reese and German would have kept their "united front of a special kind" as SWP stratergy....... It's not going to happen, but the only way I would ever consider getting back involved with swp is if the "united front of a special kind" was ditched and a revolutionary focus was adapted. For me, it is a substantive political difference. I have no doubt whatsoever that the German faction and the majority Smith faction also view this as a substantive political difference.

However, I will leave you all to your personality 'poltics'.
 
christ, your dishonesty is appaling. Do you ever get sick of putting words into other peoples mouths? I realise you have to fabricate their position in order to justify yours, but still.

Where's the politics here? There's still none, a vague whinge about the 'united front of a special kind' doesnt really cut it. Not when both groups are promising to carry on with such things.
 
If you're going to refer to me you could at least provide a quote to back up whatever point it is you're trying to make.

Louis MacNeice
 
Property? I was under the impression that the split is about different political priorities. On the one side the maintaining the anti-war movement. On the other side the economic crisis and how to respond to it?
 
belboid said:
christ, your dishonesty is appaling. Do you ever get sick of putting words into other peoples mouths?
.
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A bit rich coming from the singular most obnoxious, dishonest, lying scumbag piece of shit wanker in the history of this site. Called anyone a rapist lately you disgusting bag of slime?
 
funny how you choose to ignore the context there isnt dylans? get your own house in order before throwing such stones, you repugnant apologist for sexual abuse.

(your pretence to have dropped all this shit didnt last long, did it?)
 
belboid said:
funny how you choose to ignore the context there isnt dylans? get your own house in order before throwing such stones, you repugnant apologist for sexual abuse.

(your pretence to have dropped all this shit didnt last long, did it?)
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