Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Usury

phildwyer

phildwyer

Plata o plomo
Banned
Isn't it time to call a spade a spade?

The world of today is ruled by usury. And the rule of usury is evil.

The fact that most people don't know what "usury" means is the most efficient instrument facilitating its rule.

So perhaps we should think about what usury is, and about what it does.

I'll begin by pointing out that usury is not merely an economic phenomenon. Indeed the illusion that there exists a discrete field of human life known as "the economy" is among usury's most pernicious effects.

In my opinion. Yours?
 
You too phil
I hope you behave yourself now

eusa_naughty.gif
 
phildwyer said:
<snip>
I'll begin by pointing out that usury is not merely an economic phenomenon. Indeed the illusion that there exists a discrete field of human life known as "the economy" is among usury's most pernicious effects.

In my opinion. Yours?
Click to expand...

I like that. If I've read you right, that's exactly what I think as well.
 
phildwyer said:
Isn't it time to call a spade a spade?

The world of today is ruled by usury. And the rule of usury is evil.

The fact that most people don't know what "usury" means is the most efficient instrument facilitating its rule.

So perhaps we should think about what usury is, and about what it does.

I'll begin by pointing out that usury is not merely an economic phenomenon. Indeed the illusion that there exists a discrete field of human life known as "the economy" is among usury's most pernicious effects.

In my opinion. Yours?
Click to expand...
Merry Christmas!
 
phildwyer said:
Isn't it time to call a spade a spade?

The world of today is ruled by usury. And the rule of usury is evil.

The fact that most people don't know what "usury" means is the most efficient instrument facilitating its rule.

So perhaps we should think about what usury is, and about what it does.

I'll begin by pointing out that usury is not merely an economic phenomenon. Indeed the illusion that there exists a discrete field of human life known as "the economy" is among usury's most pernicious effects.

In my opinion. Yours?
Click to expand...

So I've never quite gotten clear about why you want to talk about 'usury' instead of say 'capital'

The former comes (at least for me) with a whole lot of religious baggage, so I'd be curious to know why you prefer to use it in this context.

Some of the time when you're talking about this stuff I wonder whether if you were to recast what you're saying in more conventional e.g. Marxist, terminology, it'd make just as much sense and be a lot easier for people to get on with.

Do you think the religious language (or whatever you want to call it) is essential to your point? If so I'd be curious to know why.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
So I've never quite gotten clear about why you want to talk about 'usury' instead of say 'capital'...if you were to recast what you're saying in more conventional e.g. Marxist, terminology, it'd make just as much sense and be a lot easier for people to get on with.
Click to expand...
And therein lies your answer :D
 
I think of "capital" as a manifestation of usury. In non-capitalist societies, usury still exists (even if it's prohibited).
 
usury the word always makes me think of this

How like a fawning publican he looks!
I hate him for he is a Christian,
But more for that in low simplicity
He lends out money gratis and brings down
The rate of usance here with us in Venice.
If I can catch him once upon the hip,
I will feed fat the ancient grudge I bear him.
He hates our sacred nation, and he rails,
Even there where merchants most do congregate,
On me, my bargains and my well-won thrift,
Which he calls interest. Cursed be my tribe,
If I forgive him
Click to expand...


and do this face: :hmm:
 
Bernie Gunther said:
So I've never quite gotten clear about why you want to talk about 'usury' instead of say 'capital'

The former comes (at least for me) with a whole lot of religious baggage, so I'd be curious to know why you prefer to use it in this context.

Some of the time when you're talking about this stuff I wonder whether if you were to recast what you're saying in more conventional e.g. Marxist, terminology, it'd make just as much sense and be a lot easier for people to get on with.

Do you think the religious language (or whatever you want to call it) is essential to your point? If so I'd be curious to know why.
Click to expand...

Yes. I think it is vitally important to rediscover the term and the concept of "usury."

It isn't a specifically religious term. Usury was condemned by every premodern school of philosophy as well as every religion. One of the reasons why I want to rediscover the term is so that people can understand just how unanimous human opinion has always been in condemning our current "economic" arrangements.

There are other reasons too. One is that "usury" includes the social and psychological effects of money-lending as well as the "economic" ones. Another is that protests against usury capture the logical problem with capitalism better than any modern critique.

Attacks on usury point out that it is irrational to treat a human invention, such as money, as if it were a natural creature. This is done when money is allowed to "breed" as if it were alive. Once we regard it as alive, money begins to behave like a living creature, acquiring its own interests and desires along with the capacity for autonomous action. Those interests and desires oppose the interests and desires of the human beings whose activity money represents.

And so on. The concept of "usury" makes available a whole new universe of grounds on which to criticize capitalism.
 
maomao said:
What's the definition of usury here? Is it 'making unethical or immoral monetary loans' as wikipedia would have it or just lending money at interest at all?
Click to expand...

It means either paying or receiving any interest at all.

The idea that it refers only to excessive or unfair interest is a distortion, born out of the debates that raged around the incremental legitimization of usury in C17th England.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
So I've never quite gotten clear about why you want to talk about 'usury' instead of say 'capital'

The former comes (at least for me) with a whole lot of religious baggage, so I'd be curious to know why you prefer to use it in this context.

Some of the time when you're talking about this stuff I wonder whether if you were to recast what you're saying in more conventional e.g. Marxist, terminology, it'd make just as much sense and be a lot easier for people to get on with.

Do you think the religious language (or whatever you want to call it) is essential to your point? If so I'd be curious to know why.
Click to expand...

Capital, never really understood how this can be used for an evil force that seeks to enslave the common man, its like blaming the roulette wheel as the big evil mechanism of woe instead of gambling, when really a roulette wheel is just a big wheel with numbers written on it.
 
camouflage said:
Capital, never really understood how this can be used for an evil force that seeks to enslave the common man, its like blaming the roulette wheel as the big evil mechanism of woe instead of gambling, when really a roulette wheel is just a big wheel with numbers written on it.
Click to expand...

True enough.

Capital only exists in the mind. It is a psychological problem, so we must assume it requires a psychological cure.
 
phildwyer said:
Attacks on usury point out that it is irrational to treat a human invention, such as money, as if it were a natural creature. This is done when money is allowed to "breed" as if it were alive. Once we regard it as alive, money begins to behave like a living creature, acquiring its own interests and desires along with the capacity for autonomous action. Those interests and desires oppose the interests and desires of the human beings whose activity money represents.

And so on. The concept of "usury" makes available a whole new universe of grounds on which to criticize capitalism.
Click to expand...

If money acts as if it's alive then it's because it's a reflection of a living thing, human society. we need it to grow and move about because that's what we do. Same thing with other things like technology, culture, art etc. I agree that society is full of contradictory conflicts of interest though. (buddum tish)
 
So if I say you can have 6 sacks of my stored apples now, but you must give me back 7 sacks come next harvest time, on account of apples having more value now because of the effort put in to storing them safely, is that evil ursury?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom