Uaf Swp Lmhr Fuck Off!!!!

[durruti02]

You Are Making Things Worse ... The People Interested In The Bnp Already Think You Are A Bunch Of Middle Class Wankers .. Bullshit Demos When We Face Serious Issue Will Make Things Worse ..

Do Somethig Uselfull .. Help An Old Lady Across The Road .. Help Your Neighbour With Their Shopping .. Get Involved With The Tra Or Ra .. Set Up A Food Co-op .. Campiagn For Better Kids Facilities .. Become A Mentor .. Whatfuckingever!!!!!!

just Fuck Off With Your Bullshit Anti Fascism

 

[Groucho]

prat

 

[cockneyrebel]

Durutti what planet are you on?

As said on another thread. The method you are advocating (the IWCA and similar) isn't exactly doing great, and the IWCA has just lost two councillors to New Labour.

But the real point is that the far left have next to no influence on anything. So rather than continually moan on about an irrelevant far left why not just concentrate on doing what you think is right.

 

[durruti02]

Durutti what planet are you on?

As said on another thread. The method you are advocating (the IWCA and similar) isn't exactly doing great, and the IWCA has just lost two councillors to New Labour.

But the real point is that the far left have next to no influence on anything. So rather than continually moan on about an irrelevant far left why not just concentrate on doing what you think is right.

CR these wankers ARE relevent .. they are the public face of progressive politics ... they will be seen on the tele outside the city hall as they were outside the opera as they were outside griffins court case chanting their inane slogans waving their nieve inaccurate placards

.. it IS and they are part of the problem .. the SWP/GG left are percieved as patronising middle class pro immigrant wankers .. if there is now a turn toward a new anl etc that is diasasterous ..

you can argue Thatchers victory in 79 was the failure of the left by its turn from w/c politcs to antifascism in the late 7ts ... and that continuing turn is the rise of the bnp now

 

[durruti02]

Durutti what planet are you on?

As said on another thread. The method you are advocating (the IWCA and similar) isn't exactly doing great, and the IWCA has just lost two councillors to New Labour.

But the real point is that the far left have next to no influence on anything. So rather than continually moan on about an irrelevant far left why not just concentrate on doing what you think is right.

CR a planet where the bnp vote just went up 50% .. and yes that method is not doing well .. it is not their fault but of british leftism .. which still associates progressive politics with supportting hamas instead of helping your elderly neighbour with her shopping

 

[audiotech]

Plank!

 

[cockneyrebel]

They're not the public face of anything, it just shows that you are living in a bubble if you think so. 90%+ people in this country have never even heard of the SWP, let alone know what they're about. I doubt it's much different for the UAF. And while I accept that the UAF is totally flawed, and indeed can make things worse, in most places they are just irrelevant. So why waste so much time commenting on them? Go out and do something useful instead.

Also I don't think it helps calling people in the SWP etc wankers. Most of them are committed left activsts, even if their politics are wrong.

And as also said, your method is hardly doing great. The IWCA just lost 2 of its 3 seats to new labour.

the SWP/GG left are percieved as.......pro immigrant wankers

So is it wrong to be "pro immigrant"? Should people be anti-immigrant?

 

[cockneyrebel]

CR a planet where the bnp vote just went up 50% .. and yes that method is not doing well .. it is not their fault but of british leftism .. which still associates progressive politics with supportting hamas instead of helping your elderly neighbour with her shopping

So the fact that IWCA aren't doing well isn't there own fault, but the fault of a few thousand irrelevant far left activists? You couldn't make this up. I doubt the far left even exist in the wards where the IWCA just lost their seats.

 

[durruti02]

They're not the public face of anything, it just shows that you are living in a bubble if you think so. 90%+ people in this country have never even heard of the SWP, let alone know what they're about. I doubt it's much different for the UAF. And while I accept that the UAF is totally flawed, and indeed can make things worse, in most places they are just irrelevant. So why waste so much time commenting on them? Go out and do something useful instead.

Also I don't think it helps calling people in the SWP etc wankers. Most of them are committed left activsts, even if their politics are wrong.

And as also said, your method is hardly doing great. The IWCA just lost 2 of its 3 seats to new labour.

So is it wrong to be "pro immigrant"? Should people be anti-immigrant?

yes of course it is wrong to be pro or anti immigrant just as it is wrong to be pro or anti white .. it is divisive .. and plays into the hands of fascists

yes 90% of people have not heard of the swp BUT these idiot demos get on national and local news .. peoples perception of the left , who they rarely meet in the day to day IS CREATED by the idiotic stunts of the swp and uaf .. it is disasterous

p.s. any ideas on how much money and time was spent on their stratgey in the last few years??????

yes there are many good swpwers but the % seems to go down year in year out .. i am sorry but what they are doing and have done the last few years is fucking disgusting and has been deeply damaging to the progressive left and all of us

 

[durruti02]

So the fact that IWCA aren't doing well isn't there own fault, but the fault of a few thousand irrelevant far left activists? You couldn't make this up. I doubt the far left even exist in the wards where the IWCA just lost their seats.

to repeat .. the vast majority of people do not meet the left day to day .. what they do see is the idiot demos on the tele and what they do here thru the grapevine is that the left are against them and for the immigrants .. and the swp left do NOTHING to chnage this perception

re IWCA .. start another thread .. at least they are trying .. the swp are just playing into the hands of the fascists and state

 

[urbanrevolt]

Fascists who want to kill Black people DO NOT represent me or millions of Londoners.

It is absolutely right to demonstrate against them and use physical force to show that we ordinary working class people won't put up with these friends of the super-rich who want to smash the working class into the ground

 

[Groucho]

I'm going to rhino over your lino an' I'm going to rhino with you

 

[cockneyrebel]

yes of course it is wrong to be pro or anti immigrant just as it is wrong to be pro or anti white .. it is divisive .. and plays into the hands of fascists

yes 90% of people have not heard of the swp BUT these idiot demos get on national and local news .. peoples perception of the left , who they rarely meet in the day to day IS CREATED by the idiotic stunts of the swp and uaf .. it is disasterous

p.s. any ideas on how much money and time was spent on their stratgey in the last few years??????

yes there are many good swpwers but the % seems to go down year in year out .. i am sorry but what they are doing and have done the last few years is fucking disgusting and has been deeply damaging to the progressive left and all of us

It depends what you mean by "pro immigrant" (I don't really get what you meant by the term, which is why I put it in inverted commas). But having solidarity with immigrant workers and being against scapegoating them is a positive thing (which is what I thought you meant by "pro immigrant").

I think you massively overestimate how much influence the SWP has, which is partly because you seem to live in an activist bubble. No-one in my area or workplace is removely influenced by the SWP one way or the other.

Also what do you hope to achieve with these rants? The ever dwindling far left is deeply entrenched with their ideas. Do you really think that they're gonna read your post and think "oh right, I'm wrong and you're right". Why not spend your energy talking about active campaigns and discussing your ideas with people in your community and workplace?

to repeat .. the vast majority of people do not meet the left day to day .. what they do see is the idiot demos on the tele and what they do here thru the grapevine is that the left are against them and for the immigrants .. and the swp left do NOTHING to chnage this perception

re IWCA .. start another thread .. at least they are trying .. the swp are just playing into the hands of the fascists and state

Again I think you're living in a bubble. I think you massively overestimate the influence of the SWP, whether directly or indirectly. They may have a big influence in this or that campaign, but that's about it.

I don't agree with the IWCA, but wouldn't call them wankers. But to blame their poor showing on the far left is going into the realms of total fantasy.

 

[durruti02]

Fascists who want to kill Black people DO NOT represent me or millions of Londoners.

It is absolutely right to demonstrate against them and use physical force to show that we ordinary working class people won't put up with these friends of the super-rich who want to smash the working class into the ground

so we do not demonstrate against ALL the other shite??? just these wankers??? for fuck sake YOU have been conned .. red herringed side tracked .. the bnp are rising cos we are not confronting capital in peoples day to day lives ..

as i said to you on the other thread

"so the bnp have created all the problems in lancs( or london)??? give over .. they are merely the parasites feasting on the shit capital has created .. DO NOT LET THE SCUM SIDETRACK US.. it is playing exactly into the hands of the state "

 

[cockneyrebel]

I'm going to rhino over your lino an' I'm going to rhino with you

Are you feeling ok

 

[cockneyrebel]

so we do not demonstrate against ALL the other shite??? just these wankers??? for fuck sake YOU have been conned .. red herringed side tracked .. the bnp are rising cos we are not confronting capital in peoples day to day lives ..

as i said to you on the other thread

"so the bnp have created all the problems in lancs( or london)??? give over .. they are merely the parasites feasting on the shit capital has created .. DO NOT LET THE SCUM SIDETRACK US.. it is playing exactly into the hands of the state "

People demonstrate about stuff all the time.

I'm helping to organise a campaign against privatisation of local services and we're involving staff and tenants.

Urbanrevolt has led local campaigns against deportations (with huge support from the local community) and is organising to build a rank and final initiative out of the recent strikes.

There is nothing wrong with demonstrating against the BNP, the point is to build something more than this. And I don't see the method you are putting forward exactly making massive headway.

 

[urbanrevolt]

Exactly- actually demos and fights against prvatisation, housing cuts, evictions and all the rest of the shit will do far more to stop the BNP as long as we also remember to demonstrate against them as well

 

[durruti02]

Also what do you hope to achieve with these rants? The ever dwindling far left is deeply entrenched with their ideas. Do you really think that they're gonna read your post and think "oh right, I'm wrong and you're right". Why not spend your energy talking about active campaigns and discussing your ideas with people in your community and workplace?

Again I think you're living in a bubble. I think you massively overestimate the influence of the SWP, whether directly or indirectly. They may have a big influence in this or that campaign, but that's about it.

I don't agree with the IWCA, but wouldn't call them wankers. But to blame their poor showing on the far left is going into the realms of total fantasy.

1) yes you are right .. it acheives little ranting and actually contradicts exactly my criticism of what the uaf swpo do to w/c people .. i lost my temper .. but i am still angry .. they and their idiot middle class leninism have really really really fucked progressive politics

2) my 'community' is more w/c than activist .. i am ranting from there .. i am in NO bullble .. i repeat 90% of peoople do not meet any sort of left regulalry .. when they DO it is the idiot SWP/GG with their childish nonsense .. you totally do not get this .. yes their contact with the left is minimal .. BUT when it DOES happen it is destructive

3) eh?? i blame an ideology for people not doing that style of politcs in other areas so they have been isollated

 

[FridgeMagnet]

No "ordinary person" gives a shit about the SWP. You have to look pretty far and fucking wide to even find someone who knows what "SWP" stands for.

My last job, there was a bloke there who was a swappie - you wouldn't necessarily have noticed, read the Socialist Worker in the office occasionally, had stickers up when there was something big going on, that sort of thing. He was generally regarded with a bit of curiosity and respect, people listened to what he had to say in the pub because they'd not heard any of that before.

 

[Zonk]

yes there are many good swpwers

I have yet to see any evidence of this and believe it to be an urban myth...

 

[durruti02]

Exactly- actually demos and fights against prvatisation, housing cuts, evictions and all the rest of the shit will do far more to stop the BNP as long as we also remember to demonstrate against them as well

so you agree with me?? you and CR may do that sort of stuff but the idiot sw have dropped most usefull things .. their involvment with dch??

until people trust us on the day to day they will not trust us on bigger issues ..

 

[JTG]

You Are Making Things Worse ... The People Interested In The Bnp Already Think You Are A Bunch Of Middle Class Wankers .. Bullshit Demos When We Face Serious Issue Will Make Things Worse ..

Do Somethig Uselfull .. Help An Old Lady Across The Road .. Help Your Neighbour With Their Shopping .. Get Involved With The Tra Or Ra .. Set Up A Food Co-op .. Campiagn For Better Kids Facilities .. Become A Mentor .. Whatfuckingever!!!!!!

just Fuck Off With Your Bullshit Anti Fascism

there there, it's OK. You let it all out, some of us understand

 

[cockneyrebel]

1) yes you are right .. it acheives little ranting and actually contradicts exactly my criticism of what the uaf swpo do to w/c people .. i lost my temper .. but i am still angry .. they and their idiot middle class leninism have really really really fucked progressive politics

The leninist left is so irrelevant it does nothing to stop an alternative being built. As said most people have never heard of them. I think stalinism and social democracy might have had a tad more to do with turning people of left/socialist ideas.

2) my 'community' is more w/c than activist .. i am ranting from there .. i am in NO bullble .. i repeat 90% of peoople do not meet any sort of left regulalry .. when they DO it is the idiot SWP/GG with their childish nonsense .. you totally do not get this .. yes their contact with the left is minimal .. BUT when it DOES happen it is destructive

I do get what you're saying I just think you totally exagerate even in the indirect influence that the SWP has.

3) eh?? i blame an ideology for people not doing that style of politcs in other areas so they have been isollated

As said in most areas the far left do not exist. It's ridiculous to blame the failures of the IWCA on the far left. Any left alternative would have an open road in most areas.

In any case you're not gonna change the minds of the far left, so you might as well talk to the 99.99999% of people who aren't part of the far left if you think they're wrong.

so you agree with me?? you and CR may do that sort of stuff but the idiot sw have dropped most usefull things .. their involvment with dch??

To be fair the local DCH campaign (which is backing the anti-privatisation initiative) is led by an SWPer who puts a massive amount of energy into the campaign. Sadly we narrowly lost the vote against the ALMO.

 

[Groucho]

Are you feeling ok

I thought I would elevate the thread to a higher philosophical level

 

[durruti02]

The leninist left is so irrelevant it does nothing to stop an alternative being built. As said most people have never heard of them. I think stalinism and social democracy might have had a tad more to do with turning people of left/socialist ideas.

I do get what you're saying I just think you totally exagerate even in the indirect influence that the SWP has.

As said in most areas the far left do not exist. It's ridiculous to blame the failures of the IWCA on the far left. Any left alternative would have an open road in most areas.

In any case you're not gonna change the minds of the far left, so you might as well talk to the 99.99999% of people who aren't part of the far left if you think they're wrong.

To be fair the local DCH campaign (which is backing the anti-privatisation initiative) is led by an SWPer who puts a massive amount of energy into the campaign. Sadly we narrowly lost the vote against the ALMO.

CR mate you are not listenning .. when GG is on big brother, when people see a left wing paper being sold, when on the news they see a demo at the opera or city hall etc etc THAT is when they DO see the left .. so yes miniscule and with no day to day contact BUT this deeply damaging public image .. and this new malarky is a classic of that ..

( yes INDIVIDUAL swpers put time an effort into dch .. you know as well as i do they are not given the support from the party)

 

[Bakunin]

CR mate you are not listenning .. when GG is on big brother, when people see a left wing paper being sold, when on the news they see a demo at the opera or city hall etc etc THAT is when they DO see the left .. so yes miniscule and with no day to day contact BUT this deeply damaging public image .. and this new malarky is a classic of that ..

( yes INDIVIDUAL swpers put time an effort into dch .. you know as well as i do they are not given the support from the party)

Sounds like a fair point to me, and one I'd like to see answered.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on how much indirect influence the SWP have.

In Barking and Dagenham for instance the far left just don't exist. There would be nothing stopping someone from trying to get a non-Leninist organisation off the ground and doing community campaigns. I think you'd be better off looking at where the IWCA is going wrong rather than trying to convince Leninist to change their mind, which they won't. You're just banging your head against the wall.

As the TV show said, go out and do something better instead.

 

[audiotech]

CR mate you are not listenning .. when GG is on big brother, when people see a left wing paper being sold, when on the news they see a demo at the opera or city hall etc etc THAT is when they DO see the left .. so yes miniscule and with no day to day contact BUT this deeply damaging public image .. and this new malarky is a classic of that ..

( yes INDIVIDUAL swpers put time an effort into dch .. you know as well as i do they are not given the support from the party)

Damaging public image - ffs. A 'New Hackney Independent' has been born.

Thank fuck you weren't responsible for the strategy to defeat the poll tax.

durruti02, think what it would do to your ego if you had as many voters, listeners or fans as Gorgeous George.

 

[audiotech]

In Barking and Dagenham for instance the far left just don't exist. There would be nothing stopping someone from trying to get a non-Leninist organisation off the ground and doing community campaigns. I think you'd be better off looking at where the IWCA is going wrong rather than trying to convince Leninist to change their mind, which they won't. You're just banging your head against the wall.

I wish I had your way with words CR.

 

[Groucho]

Sounds like a fair point to me, and one I'd like to see answered.

Not true though is it. The SWP backs defend council housing fully and mostly SWP members lead it nationally and locally.

My only ever speech at the TUC concentrated on this very issue:

(Public and Commercial Services Union) supported Composite 11. He said: The importance of this issue cannot be over-emphasised. In Barking and Dagenham, where the fascist British National Party made disturbing inroads into the Council Chamber, provision of council housing was the key issue. We cannot afford to compromise on this issue. The trade union Movement has been at the forefront of the campaign to defend and extend council house provision. My own union, the PCS, fully supports the Defend Council Housing Campaign for the fourth option and is against the relentless privatisation agenda pursued by this government and previous governments.
...blah blah....
Affordable housing has to be affordable, and that has to mean council houses at affordable rents, not just luxury flats for fat cats.
Let us not have more rhetoric from Brown's Government; let us have the fourth option as policy.
There are millions of council house tenants who support council housing. There are millions of people on the waiting lists. There are millions of low paid and young workers desperate to get a house. Support the fourth option.