Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

[Thu 8th Mar 2012] 'The Failure of Capitalist Production', Prof. Andrew Kliman & Prof.... (S3 7RA)

Das Uberdog

remembers the alamo
Andrew Kliman's on a speaking tour of the UK, promoting his latest book 'The Failure of Capitalist Production'. He'll be visiting Sheffield on Thursday March 8th for a panel discussion with resident Sheffield University Professor Jonathan Perraton to discuss it, and all are invited.

The meeting will be held in the Jessop West Exhibition Space
 
If i remember right Kliman has reverted to some sort of mechanic model of capital functioning based on a TSSI model? Ld?
 
could be interesting. He does seem a bit odd, strongly anti-'academic', but in an incredibly academic style...
 
If i remember right Kliman has reverted to some sort of mechanic model of capital functioning based on a TSSI model? Ld?

ld?

yeah he champions the TSSI 'school', though how do you mean 'mechanic'? so far as i understand it, Kliman refutes a simplistic analysis of prices and values being equal in input as to output, i.e. very very generally, the inputs do not necessarily equate in a mathematical way to the output on any measurable scale...
 
could be interesting. He does seem a bit odd, strongly anti-'academic', but in an incredibly academic style...

it should definitely be interesting! Jonathan Perraton is well versed in Kliman's thesis and is not at all uncritical, so i think we'll get a good debate going..
 
If i remember right Kliman has reverted to some sort of mechanic model of capital functioning based on a TSSI model? Ld?

Kind off, but i wouldn't say TSSI is a 'model' as such, in and off itself. It's pretty much just a common sense interpretation of marx's capital which neither seems controversial or ground breaking/unique - it's just basic marx in my mind - in short all TSSI says is:-

i) time/temporality has to be taken into account when valuing inputs and outputs of a production process (as opposed to the alternative 'interpretation' which values inputs & outputs retrospectively & simultaneously, this in turn ultimately leads to 'physicalist' conclusions - i.e. that profit/value and rate of profit relates to the amount of things/use values produced, which is nonsense. this is pretty much what Okishio's 'disproval' of marx's tendency of the rate of profit to fall is based on - arguing that increasing productivity can never lead to a fall in the rate of profit, because it effectively resolves value and therefore 'profit' into the output of physical things - which is just plain daft. also the implications of not accepting the temporal interpretation leads to the absurd 'marxist' position where it can be argued that there can be profit without surplus labour being performed/extracted and therefore that accumulation of capital does not depend upon exploitation of labour - plain daft)

ii) values & prices are part of the same interdependent single system (while in turn reflecting different layers of it) - I can't see how any reading of vol3 of capital could come to any other conclusion - the alternative 'interpretation' to the single system is the dual system interpretation where it's argued that value and price (at both the micro and macro level) are determined completely independently of each other and represent two completely distinct independent systems. there's no way any reading of volume 3 of capital can lead to this conclusion

his main book on this 'reclaiming marx's capital - a A Refutation of the Myth of Inconsistency' goes over this chapter & verse, and while i never found much to disagree with in that (in terms of it's interpretation of Capital vol1-3) I was always amazed though as to why the debates that provoked it and the book itself needed to be written in the first place - guess it shows how rotten to the core and debilitating marxist analysis & research is within academia, that they spend decades creating and commodifying the various schools of thought around this- it's utterly corrupting of the original intention

Belboid's right that Kliman is a very anti-academic academic - and carries out his anti-academia in a very academic way - he told me he hates academia and detests everything that goes on within it (and would like to see this kind of stuff being taken out and away from academic institutions), but there's not much sign of any activity from him outwith of academia - he wrote a paper on the disentegration of the marxist school and what can be done to reverse this disintegration and asked me for some comments on it, and all I could say was that the 'marxist school' was rotten to the core and the disentegration should continue until it's compeltely obliterated and then start afresh, outside of academia

edit: should add that he's the only academic that i've ever been able to talk to about this kind of stuff without wanting to kill them in the face, so he has something going for him that a lot of the others don't, in that he doesn't come across as a complete cunt (although should also add i've not talked to many academics, marxist or otherwise so not sure how much this means - although i presume it's a reasonable starting assumption to take that most of them are complete cunts)
 
What is TSSI? Do I need to know about it?

probably not in the grand scheme of things... i don't even remember the full wording properly. something like transfigurative single-system interpretation or something? wiki can probably help you out.

i think the meeting will be non-TSSI expert friendly though.
 
Temporal Single System Interpretation (TSSI) - the 'temporal' part relates to part (i) of the post above and 'single system' part (ii)

Not to be confused with the Simultaneous Single System Interpretation (SSSI) or the New Interpretation (NI) or the Fundamental Marxist Theorem (FMT) or the Simultaneous Dual System Interpretation (SDSI)

No one needs to know anything about any of these really - profit comes from the exploitation of labour, that's all you need to know
 
So is this temporal watsit where he disagrees with Harvey then? Someone was telling me that he'd debunked Harvey's claim that credit is required to provide a bridge between yesterday's surplus and today's reinvestment (and also that Harvey's model is essentially Keynesian, though I can't get my head around that one).

I've got to say I've always found Harvey informative and accessible and the idea that he was a Keynesian just seemed bizarre to me. I can't say I fully understood the arguments being made so I might have misrepresented them slightly. I did get the impression that the person I was talking to about this was trying to baffle me with jargon though to be honest.
 
So is this temporal watsit where he disagrees with Harvey then? Someone was telling me that he'd debunked Harvey's claim that credit is required to provide a bridge between yesterday's surplus and today's reinvestment (and also that Harvey's model is essentially Keynesian, though I can't get my head around that one).

I've got to say I've always found Harvey informative and accessible and the idea that he was a Keynesian just seemed bizarre to me. I can't say I fully understood the arguments being made so I might have misrepresented them slightly. I did get the impression that the person I was talking to about this was trying to baffle me with jargon though to be honest.

as i understand it, Harvey descends into underconsumptionist theories around economic vitality... i.e. the crisis in the current economy is linked to falling rates of consumption (once financed from wages, increasingly financed from credit, and when credit collapses, increasingly not financed at all) as opposed to a traditional Marxist interpretation which lays the root of the problem, in crude terms, in the rate of exploitation.

in that sense he does adopt an essentially Keynesian posture, in that the problems he identifies can be rectified by encouraging general spending and investment when in practice what capitalism really needs is cheaper production and general labour costs (increased rate of exploitation).

Kliman has also revived theories around the tendency of the rate of profit to fall, and with it the process of over-accumulation, to explain the crisis in profitability in the current market.

so, again in generalised terms, rather than the economic crisis being related to declining rates of consumption, Kliman argues that it is in fact related to declining rates of profitability, increasingly reduced returns on increasingly long-term and massive investments, and a stagnation of investment opportunities. it's not that the money isn't there to spend, it's that there's nowhere sufficiently profitable to spend it!

correct me if i'm wrong love detective (or other)
 
I'd always thought pretty much all Marxist economists assumed the tendency for the rate of profit to fall and isn't underconsumption the same as a crisis of overproduction?
 
No they don't, that's one of the historical fault lines. Marx didn't even assume it. And no, because it assumes different driving factors.

(Too late, too laptop, too drunk to post much more on this tonight)
 
So is this temporal watsit where he disagrees with Harvey then? Someone was telling me that he'd debunked Harvey's claim that credit is required to provide a bridge between yesterday's surplus and today's reinvestment (and also that Harvey's model is essentially Keynesian, though I can't get my head around that one).

I've got to say I've always found Harvey informative and accessible and the idea that he was a Keynesian just seemed bizarre to me. I can't say I fully understood the arguments being made so I might have misrepresented them slightly. I did get the impression that the person I was talking to about this was trying to baffle me with jargon though to be honest.

I think people claiming Harvey as essentially Keynesian are misrepresenting him. His argument isn't that the crisis in capital is simply that decreasing wages and drying up credit for labour has caused underconsumption, rather this is one of the crises caused by the neo-liberalisms solution to the problem labours incursion on profitability in the 70's. He also argues that financialisation also acted as a temporal solution for the dwindling investment opportunities inherent in capitals need for an estimated 3% compound growth. This financialisation also has the effect of even further reducing labours ability to consume as it sucks up more and more wealth from the working classes. Harvey in no way see's a Keynesian solution to the crisis, instead he see's crisis as inherent to capital, that in so much as it is overcome it gets moved further down the road or articulates itself in another area.
 
if that's the case then he doesn't present any other model other than an underconsumptionist one to explain the root of today's crisis... certainly from the way he prioritises his analysis i've got the impression that he believes it to be the chief motivating factor
 
if that's the case then he doesn't present any other model other than an underconsumptionist one to explain the root of today's crisis... certainly from the way he prioritises his analysis i've got the impression that he believes it to be the chief motivating factor
Harvey is an underconsumptionist in his idea that there needs to be limit to to reached and that it's all internal now (the search for new areas of consumption) but he's wrong, and he shows how he's wrong when he shows how markets produce themselves.
 
if that's the case then he doesn't present any other model other than an underconsumptionist one to explain the root of today's crisis... certainly from the way he prioritises his analysis i've got the impression that he believes it to be the chief motivating factor

He see's it's roots in the neo liberal solutions to the crises of the 70's. That is he see's capital as a system that moves from crisis to crisis, with each "solution" providing only temporal or spatial relief. I think the strength of Harvey is that he actually addresses what gave birth to neo liberalism, which was the crisis of the 70's of which labours infringement on profitability was one rather large factor.
 
Harvey is an underconsumptionist in his idea that there needs to be limit to to reached and that it's all internal now (the search for new areas of consumption) but he's wrong, and he shows how he wrong when he shows how markets produce themselves.

You mean through fresh rounds of "primitive accumulation", privatisations and the like, or do you mean stuff like the possibility of new green economies and the like?
 
You mean through fresh rounds of "primitive accumulation", privatisations and the like, or do you mean stuff like the possibility of new green economies and the like?
Through internal stuff - at peoples money what they saved, that can we get off social reproduction and so on - there's an assumed end that it can reach, like Rosa's final barrier.
 
i think he also generally comes from a political tradition where the progressive aim of re-distributing wealth downwards is conflated with 'anti-capitalism', and his economic theories represent that... the solutions themselves are basically left-Keynesian
 
Through internal stuff - at peoples money what they saved, that can we get off social reproduction and so on - there's an assumed end that it can reach, like Rosa's final barrier.

I'm probably missing something but if the problem is finding markets for investment how does savings come into it, surely they are part of the problem, they aren't circulating as capital?

The social reproduction stuff, would you say that's stuff like child care, increasing service industries, privatising out cleaners?
 
i think he also generally comes from a political tradition where the progressive aim of re-distributing wealth downwards is conflated with 'anti-capitalism', and his economic theories represent that... the solutions themselves are basically left-Keynesian
No he doesn't. Why did/do you think that strong enough to say argue it?
 
i think he also generally comes from a political tradition where the progressive aim of re-distributing wealth downwards is conflated with 'anti-capitalism', and his economic theories represent that... the solutions themselves are basically left-Keynesian

Yeah I think there is a large social democratic streak in Harvey but don't think he can be called Keynesian because he wants to see an end of growth, whilst Keynes is all about kick starting it again.
 
I'm probably missing something but if the problem is finding markets for investment how does savings come into it, surely they are part of the problem, they aren't circulating as capital?

The social reproduction stuff, would you say that's stuff like child care, increasing service industries, privatising out cleaners?
Savings are global. They go to china.

Yes
 
i think he also generally comes from a political tradition where the progressive aim of re-distributing wealth downwards is conflated with 'anti-capitalism', and his economic theories represent that... the solutions themselves are basically left-Keynesian


Hang on KLiman or Harvey?
 
Back
Top Bottom