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Thorium Energy

A slight diversion:

I was looking at the ThorEA website and spotted Inside a linear particle accelerator.



This is the original LINAC at the Rutherford Appleton Lab, now used as the proton injector for the ISIS Spallation Neutron Source.

Built by Metro-Vickers in Manchester in 1956, back in the days when we used to design and make things in erstwhile Great Britain, this fine piece of engineering is still working at the cutting edge of high energy physics.
Brings a tear to my eye...
 
So Thorium sounds too good to be true. What is the catch?

I don't think there's a catch, it's just that we don't have a material strong enough to contain the corrosive molten salt cooling fluid. To contain it safely you'd have to replace the containment vessel every couple of years which makes it uneconomical.

Like most advanced nuclear technologies we're a couple of nobel prize winning discoveries away from it working properly.
 
I don't think there's a catch, it's just that we don't have a material strong enough to contain the corrosive molten salt cooling fluid. To contain it safely you'd have to replace the containment vessel every couple of years which makes it uneconomical.
Not the case with Rubbia's Energy Amplifier design, which uses Lead as coolant.

With molten salt reactors, Fluorine-Lithium-Beryllium ("FLiBe") can be used with beryllium additions to lower the electrochemical potential and almost eliminate corrosion.

China bets on thorium
 
This is a great thread. I heard about thorium reactors on Radio 4's "Costing the Earth" recently and thought the idea sounded promising.
 
Good post on reddit from a nuclear engineer -

There are a lot of misconceptions flying around the internet about Thorium-fueled reactors. They are not some magical energy cure-all that will make all our problems disappear. When you add it up, do all the math and compare all the pros and cons, they wind up being comparable to conventional breeder reactors.

Yes, Thorium is far more abundant that Uranium and thus cheaper to mine. Because it is non-fissile, much like U-238 is in a conventional reactor, it requires an initial seed reaction from U-235 or Pu-239 to create neutrons. These are then absorbed by a Thorium (Th-232) blanket to eventually make U-233. Just like in a regular breeder reactor, you have to reprocess the irradiated Thorium to extract the U-233 to make into fresh fuel to continue the cycle. In a Molten Fluoride reactor, this can technically be done on-line by diverting the flowing fuel. While it's easy to draw this on-line refueling scheme in a block diagram on paper, a prototype of such a system has yet to be developed.

The catch in all this is that U-232 is also produced during the U-233 breeding process as a byproduct. This is nasty shit whose daughter products emit a highly penetrating 2.6 MeV gamma ray during its decay, and it has a relatively long half life of 60 years or so. This intense gamma radiation is what makes it proliferation resistant (by virtue of the fact you'd cook yourself trying to build a bomb), but it also makes fuel reprocessing much more difficult (re: expensive) than that in conventional breeders. Any reprocessing scheme would have to be done by robots in a heavily shielded hot cell.

It's a misconception that this system produces "less waste" than conventional reactor. The fission product distribution isn't that different than U-235 or U-238, so you'll still get many of the same product nuclides. What is true is that the need for reprocessing in a Thorium reactor isolates the fission products right away, making the waste easier to deal with than the spent fuel we have on our hands today. With the exception of I-129, Tc-99 and a few others, most of the fission products are gone after 1000 years or so, a much more manageable timespan than unreprocessed fuel.

While there were a few lab-scale tests a long time ago, to this day there exists no full-scale prototype of a Thorium reactor. Getting the necessary licensing for a new reactor takes years, sometimes decades, and requires reams of lab data in order to conduct a proper safety analysis. With no modern operational examples, how can we get the necessary data needed for licensing? It's a tricky problem.

I could go on, but I think you get the idea. It's an interesting technology, but there are a lot of obstacles to overcome in order to implement it. Economics will be the driving factor in any decision to pursue Thorium reactors both in the US and internationally.

http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/qvfr0/if_thorium_is_safe_efficient_abundant_and_in/
 
One of the other big pluses of MSRs is that the system operates pretty much at atmospheric pressure. While the anti-corrosion issues are a pain the system is far less likely to suffer catastrophic failure and is easier to contain any leakages because there is no pressure loss.
 
The Molten Salt Reactor Experiment (MSRE) was conducted at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL) under the Directorship of Alvin Weinberg. It was funded in 1960, went critical in 1965 and ran for many thousands of equivalent full-power hours until 1969. This was two thirds of what today's Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor (LFTR) will be and all this was done in the days of slide-rules, tee squares and compasses and all manual machining and planning systems. In these days of CAD/CAM, 3D computer modelling and project planning, switching the first-of-a-kind LFTR on in 5 years from go-ahead is not an unreasonable target. The 'Program Plan for Development of Molten Salt Breeder Reactors' (MSBR) was published by ORNL in 1974; in its 687 pages, it contains over 90% of what any interested organisation needs to know about building a LFTR, which is now the recognised name for the best configuration of MSBR for power generation. See this for a snapshot of the potential of wide scale LFTR deployment: http://lftrsuk.blogspot.com/p/benefits-of-lftrs.html In particular, if you are a UK reader, please have a look at the links to the '38Degrees' and 'E-Petition' campaigns and consider voting.
 
Thanks for the info Colin and welcome to Urban75!
:)

Here are links to e-petition and 38Degrees

ETA
Just spotted:
Why Not Thorium?
Had it not been for mankind's seemingly insatiable desire to fight, thorium would have been the world's nuclear fuel of choice. Unfortunately, the Cold War pushed nuclear research toward uranium; and the momentum gained in those years has kept uranium far ahead of its lighter, more controllable, more abundant brother to date. History is replete with examples of an inferior technology beating out a superior competitor for market share, whether because of marketing or geopolitics, and once that stage is set it is near impossible for the runner-up to make a comeback. Remember Beta VCRs, anyone?
 
Could I also please link you to a some other profound arguments in favour of the widespread deployment of LFTRs? The provision of more potable water is as important as less CO2: http://lftrsuk.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/more-potable-water-as-important-as-less.html

And, UK New Nuclear will happen so we need all Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth supporters to thoroughly consider LFTR technology as an alternative to PWR technology, to allay their safety, waste and affordability fears: http://lftrsuk.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/greenpeace-like-it-or-not-uk-nuclear.html

Finally, if you're in an argument about the hold that renewable energy technologies have over AGW activists, the media and politicians, try the 'greenness' of wind turbines as a counter: http://lftrsuk.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/how-green-is-wind-turbine-in-my-valley.html
 
Nothing I've heard about Thorium suggests that it is a dream that is truly separate from the much older nuclear dream.

Even the Economist is not afraid to point out that while nuclear power is not going to suddenly disappear, the dream has failed. Sorry that this article is not specifically aligned to the thread topic, but since Thorium has such a dreamy reputation on parts of the net it seemed appropriate somehow, plus there is the giggle about the chocolate factory, oops!

A year after Fukushima, the future for nuclear power is not bright—for reasons of cost as much as safety


http://www.economist.com/node/21549936

Looking at nuclear power 26 years ago, this newspaper observed that the way forward for a somewhat moribund nuclear industry was “to get plenty of nuclear plants built, and then to accumulate, year after year, a record of no deaths, no serious accidents—and no dispute that the result is cheaper energy.” It was a fair assessment; but our conclusion that the industry was “safe as a chocolate factory” proved something of a hostage to fortune. Less than a month later one of the reactors at the Chernobyl plant in Ukraine ran out of control and exploded, killing the workers there at the time and some of those sent in to clean up afterwards, spreading contamination far and wide, leaving a swathe of countryside uninhabitable and tens of thousands banished from their homes. The harm done by radiation remains unknown to this day; the stress and anguish of the displaced has been plain to see.
Et tu, Japan
Then, 25 years later, when enough time had passed for some to be talking of a “nuclear renaissance”, it happened again (see article). The bureaucrats, politicians and industrialists of what has been called Japan’s “nuclear village” were not unaccountable apparatchiks in a decaying authoritarian state like those that bore the guilt of Chernobyl; they had responsibilities to voters, to shareholders, to society. And still they allowed their enthusiasm for nuclear power to shelter weak regulation, safety systems that failed to work and a culpable ignorance of the tectonic risks the reactors faced, all the while blithely promulgating a myth of nuclear safety.

Yeah the pseudo-democracy and shareholders didn't save people from a disaster, surprise surprise. Although there was that one shareholder who ranted at a meeting that TEPCO senior management should 'go inside the reactor and die'. Bit late by that point though eh.
 
The dream failed because we have a uranium-fuelled nuclear industry, originally set up to produce feedstock for the weapons program.

If Thorium technology had been chosen instead, we'd be living that dream now.
 
I've never understood what makes some people so sure of that, its hardly a flawless and perfect idea on paper, and in practice who knows what issues may be discovered. This in itself is not a reason not to try, but ought to temper any cheerleading.
 
I hear what you're saying: it's nuclear - and nuclear is dangerous!
I have been very anti-nuclear until just recently, but I think the benefits offered by Thorium are worth pursuing.

The only unproven Thorium technology is the accelerator-driven design proposed by Rubbia.
LFTRs were proven by Weinberg et al. at Oak Ridge Laboratory in the 1960s. That project was closed down because it could not produce the plutonium required for the weapons program.

I now see Thorium as the only realistic chance we have to both cut CO2 emissions and keep the lights on when oil runs out. Because Thorium is useless for making weapons, we can share this technology with "rogue states" - Thorium offers a world security bonus too.

Some more links:

Thorium advocates launch pressure group

The Weinberg Foundation
 
No thats not what Im saying. My head scratching about Thorium are actually nothing to do with nuclear technology or risks per se, its simply to do with why some people put so much faith in any particular technology before its been done on a large scale and demonstrated that there are no downsides that can scupper the dream.

Personally Id rather we did dabble with alternatives more as you have to start somewhere, but thats not the same as hyping up such tech as being a very broad solution to our requirements. Maybe it will help, but as one of the drawbacks on nuclear power is the cost, I don't actually know if the numbers add up.
 
Ah right, I see what you mean.

Thorium energy is still at the faith stage: more demonstration/evaluation is required before progression to trust.

My objections to nuclear energy in the past were basically on grounds of safety and cost. Proponents reckon that Thorium energy is cheaper than coal, but as you say, this needs to be demonstrated before we can trust this technology to deliver.

The prospects for civilisation without a "magic energy bullet" like Thorium add to reasons to try this ASAP, IMO.
 
2012 sees the turn of Shanghai to host the IThEO Conference, which is entirely appropriate, because China is taking the lead in exploring fresh approaches to nuclear fission in its quest for sustainable, environment-responsible energy that can be delivered reliably and in quantity.

The Chinese initiated action to find viable energy sources significant enough to wean the country off its dependence on carbon-based energy. The large amounts of Thorium being produced as a by-product of its rare earth mining operations, is a further incentive. ThEC12 is being partnered by the Shanghai Institute of Applied Physics (SINAP) - a senior academic institution of the Chinese Academy of Science (CAS), which has been given specific responsibility for the Thorium Energy utilization programme in China.

Although ThEC12 is the leading forum for ongoing debate on Thorium Energy, this year we believes there will be positive signs that the Thorium Energy implementation door against which we've been pushing, may finally be starting to open.

ThEC12 in Shanghai
 
I see that Jeffrey Sachs has said that nuclear is the only way we might avoid carbon catastrophe.

He is right. I just pray that the world chooses Thorium when the penny finally drops.
 
I have an issue with the fact that its still a fission technology with a lot of the issues of fission. 1000 year fuel cycles is still quite a long time, think about the last 1000 years of human history, its not very stable.

Carbon is going to run out so its self limiting as far as the impact of that goes. Fission plants exploding is also unsustainable in the long term, so rather than cover the planet in them, perhaps come up with something that isn't quite so hazardous to health?
 
I've not watched the videos, but there's a summary of the technology in this week's newscientist (26 May 2012). 'Nuclear alchemy'
 
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