SWP expulsions and squabbles

[chilango]

Shocking.

No. Given his eagerness to defend the SWPs at this point, it's probably not.

...and it's not defending the SWPs that's telling. It's the eagerness of the defence.

 

[butchersapron]

the guard has slipped and the naked hatred of everyone in the swp and uaf (kids included) is out in the open

Close the party border down, teach our remaining lot the basics of IS thought - no enagagment, no contamination (apart from late efforts as in the miners), no contact. This is what they did in the 80s. Guess when BB was a member.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Yeap I was an 80's downturn member. And I was terrified of contamination. Mind you I've grown a bit since then and can talk to most anyone without fear of losing my way from the chosen path. Sometimes they even change my mind! But let's be fair, blogs and forums like this aren't where the debate is most interesting, that's still face to face. half of the stuff we all say to each other on here would cause fistfights in person cause we're free not to engage with each other properly or constructively in this medium.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Close the party border down, teach our remaining lot the basics of IS thought - no enagagment, no contamination (apart from late efforts as in the miners), no contact. This is what they did in the 80s. Guess when BB was a member.

very cosy

 

[redsquirrel]

I'm quite glad the guard has slipped and the naked hatred of everyone in the swp and uaf (kids included) is out in the open. I was getting bored of all the "yes we know the swp is full of good people who've done a lot for our side but their leaders are shit" half truths so it's refreshing to have butchers and others make explicit their contempt for a huge portion of the existing left. This attitude would be the filth Pat Stack referred to and why active swpers don't touch sites like these with a barge pole.

Oh get stuffed.

I know you're a hack but even you must be able to do better than that ^ pile of crap.

 

[sihhi]

This is an example of why the left is regarded as a joke by a lot of my "normal" (ie non affiliated) mates, both in work, in my union and my personal mates.
The UAF is an anti Nazi organisation and it would be good if it was brought down?
Seriously?

UAF's structures are non-democratic, dominated by the SWP and basically focused on an odd political lash-up to vote anyone but BNP ie Labour. (Although that didn't stop them inviting strikebreaking-with-East-European-contractors Lib Dem Council leaders onto their rallies.) Energy for the UAF could as well be spent on openly pro-working class and-or class-based anti-racist political activity.
Is it wrong for people to argue against union branch donations to UAF, but to say give it to a local trades council or anticuts organisation instead.

I couldn't give a shit about who runs an anti Nazi group or to be honest how many there are. If some wanna sing songs, some wanna pray, if some wanna march, petition, have meetings or physically oppose the Nazis when they march then good for them ...at least they are ALL openly opposing them.

Petition for what? State bans on marches? State bans on BNP members within the education sector or the health sector? Petitions against PR in Mayoral Elections, because it allows BNP candidates. What's the content of the anti-far-right organising, that's what matters.

If you don't care how many there are, then having one less won't be a loss. The antifascism won't go down, simply one less national organisation.

And to be honest, people do care - even if it's not expressed openly - who runs Anti-Nazi groups as much they care who runs charities helping the homeless, or local social services or Food Banks, or farming unions, or anti-cuts-to-the-hospital campaigns, or youth boxing sessions, or free training events.

If no one cares, and no one needs to care, why was the ANL created? Why was ANL Mark 2 created? Why was UAF created? Before the ANL was created, there already was ALCARAF, why did ANL denounce it bitterly and try (largely successfully, on the back of Carnival 1 and Lewisham) to replace it?
If the content of the antifascism doesn't matter why were Red Action expelled from the SWP, why were squaddists denounced in the SWP press?

Right now there is Hope Not Hate and Searchlight as separate national antifascist organisations. Are people wrong to think them a meaningless waste of printing resources (at best) or counterproductive (most of the time)? Is it just the UAF that should remain separate and special. If someone says 'F*** Hope not hate' does this actually matter?

Do you think an antifascist saying 'F*** Hope not hate' makes them beyond the pale for people or that this makes other people less "anti-Nazi"? I don't understand your point.

My kids carried a banner on a UAF march about 4 years ago...it said "one of us is brown and one of us is pink but we both think the BNP stink." They've still got it and still remember going on the demo. Surely that is a good thing for the future.

Is this impossible without a UAF? Why are local ad hoc groups unable to call marches where (your and other) children can participate? What does the UAF provide that different formations are unable to sort out?
Or is it only good if you can go beat the shit out of them so everyone else bar the brave and tough should stay away?
Sorry for being liberal but surely it's the scum in the BNP and EDL etc. that need to be taken down?[/quote]

What "needs to be taken down" is official(state) chauvinism and neoliberalism. This is the source of the pool where the far-right grow. The "Union Movement" were taken down, lost support and the NF emerged. The NF were "taken down", lost support and the BNP emerged.
It can't "be taken down" by appealing to the (neoliberal, discriminating on the basis of birthplaces and passports) state to proscribe marches by one fraction of Britain's racists and classists.

Have the UAF taken down the BNP? Bearing in mind the UAF was formed in SWP minds in late 2003, then launched in 2004? Are the UAF tactics helping to "take down" BNP - their own mission statement.

I'd urge careful examination of the UAF approach and tactics - no antiracist organisation needs to last forever or be supported for ever. Posters here have had a stab at it on occasion. (10 threads there, many others).

 

[sihhi]

Yeap I was an 80's downturn member. And I was terrified of contamination.

Did you support Tony Cliff closing down Flame for this reason?

 

[sihhi]

If you can't bear being challenged then I have no idea how the left can build. At no point did I say anyone who disgrees is a prick...I said a little perspective is needed...I did say that if some one approached my daughters and say fuck the UAF they'd think the person was a prick and wouldn't listen to anything else so could not learn from their proper ideas and experiences.

I have stated time and time again in the last hour that criticism is fine.
I have to say I find this "debate" sad ... like I said before... it's enough to make me weep.

I don't get your daughters comments. What point exactly are you making? They can read the arguments on this board as well as anyone else, can't they? No one has approached them and said 'Hi there... Fuck the UAF'.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Did you support Tony Cliff closing down Flame for this reason?

Christ alive how old do you reckon I am No Flame and Women's Voice were gone before I joined in 86 but those debates and the fact they happened were often used by Cliff in particular to beat the Irish org as examples of how the uk SWP was better at 'having the hard arguments' than we were.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Christ alive how old do you reckon I am

I assumed it was a subtle follow up to my "man in his fifties" trolling earlier in the thread.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

There's a reasonable chance that tomorrow's Observer might be where the much threatened new claims are made. Although, I suppose there's no reason that it has to be - mainstream papers won't be choosing their moment based on the SWP's internal calendar.

 

[Gumbert]

I'm quite glad the guard has slipped and the naked hatred of everyone in the swp and uaf (kids included) is out in the open. I was getting bored of all the "yes we know the swp is full of good people who've done a lot for our side but their leaders are shit" half truths so it's refreshing to have butchers and others make explicit their contempt for a huge portion of the existing left. This attitude would be the filth Pat Stack referred to and why active swpers don't touch sites like these with a barge pole.

Spot on BB.

Btw stay solid on here BB has you have been. This thread throws up classic stuff. That most of the respondents to you don't know jack about how the SWP operates or its history, but think they do. That includes you too Das Uberdog. Anyway BB's got you licked all over.

Hiya butch, longtime no joust. See your still sailing in the trade winds with your rusty cannons. See you in the next few years on here folks.

Oh and rebel warrior says hello again BB.

 

[comrade spurski]

Sihhi
I have read plenty of things I disagree with on the AFA history thread. I have also learnt plenty. I would not and have not said anything about peoples views of various anti racist and anti nazi organisations and the politics and practice of those organisations. I have simply said that wishing the failure of the UAF while linking it the the rape crisis in the SWP and then following this up with fuck UAF lacks perspective.

Criticism of the tactics of the UAF and every other group is valid...how many more times can I say this? The point about my daughters is simply that criticism needs to be properly explained in context otherwise the person making it comes across like a nutter. That is why many stay away from the "left" ... they say few wish to listen, most wish to preach and everyone says they and only they are right. This is a common view...one that the left encourages with it's seeming hatred of other groups on the left which borders on the psychotic with its rabid sectarianism.

I ain't a member of anything other than my union and have no allegiance to any organisation I think that there are many valid criticisms of the UAF and other groups. I just don't think FUCK THE UAF represents a debate.

My daughters have been on the TUC anti cuts marches (they chose to go as their mum was made redundant and I faced redundancy) which was called by the TUC. The TUC and the unions have been awful in fighting the cuts etc. Me saying fuck the TUC seems a really bad starting place for encouraging my daughters to get involved in class politics. Explaining why I disagree with their tactics seems far better.

A coherent argument at a union meeting about whether to support the UAF or support the local Trades Council would be a legitimate debate regardless of whether or not I agree. It is not the same as standing up and saying I hope the rape crisis in the SWP causes the UAF to go under or fuck the UAF.

I don't understand your reference to petitions being about state bans on marches etc.
When we had threats to burn us out of our house (me and my partner had committed the crime of supporting asylum seekers) from the BNP and letters with razorblades on it our neighbours were petitioned by local anti racists to gain support for us. I have been involved in similar petitioning for others as well as petitioning to demand that the local council removed racist graffiti. I don't understand what the problem is with that? It may not bring down fascism but it does raise the issue and seeks to get others involved.

I have worked with CRE group; socialists in different groups; my trade union and various anti nazi groups...their were many weird ideas suggested and I didn't agree with some...I just could not and can not drum the venom for them that would lead me to make statements like those I originally challenged

From the responses I'm obviously missing the point so had best call it a day.

 

[butchersapron]

Spot on BB.

Btw stay solid on here BB has you have been. This thread throws up classic stuff. That most of the respondents to you don't know jack about how the SWP operates or its history, but think they do. That includes you too Das Uberdog. Anyway BB's got you licked all over.

Hiya butch, longtime no joust. See your still sailing in the trade winds with your rusty cannons. See you in the next few years on here folks.

Oh and rebel warrior says hello again BB.

Who is this loon? Full steam ahead.


Any politics?

 

[Buckaroo]

Who is this loon? Full steam ahead.


Any politics?

Fuck the politics. Twelve years, two thousand odd posts but no likes?

 

[emanymton]

Fuck the politics. Twelve years, two thousand odd posts but no likes?

I don't think we had 'likes' on the board when he last posted.

 

[kavenism]

Fuck the politics. Twelve years, two thousand odd posts but no likes?

In fairness the like function is relatively recent.

(Edit) SNAP!

 

[Buckaroo]

In fairness the like function is relatively recent.

(Edit) SNAP!

I just liked him for the hell of it.

 

[sihhi]

I have read plenty of things I disagree with on the AFA history thread. I have also learnt plenty. I would not and have not said anything about peoples views of various anti racist and anti nazi organisations and the politics and practice of those organisations.

I have simply said that wishing the failure of the UAF while linking it the the rape crisis in the SWP and then following this up with fuck UAF lacks perspective.

Criticism of the tactics of the UAF and every other group is valid...how many more times can I say this?

Criticise away, others criticise how they want.

The point about my daughters is simply that criticism needs to be properly explained in context otherwise the person making it comes across like a nutter. That is why many stay away from the "left" ... they say few wish to listen, most wish to preach and everyone says they and only they are right. This is a common view...one that the left encourages with it's seeming hatred of other groups on the left which borders on the psychotic with its rabid sectarianism.

The context is there on the threads where the UAF has been discussed in (not the AFA thread you referred to).

Seeming hatred - seeming is the operative word. 'Fuck the UAF' doesn't mean 'I hate all UAF members'.

I ain't a member of anything other than my union and have no allegiance to any organisation I think that there are many valid criticisms of the UAF and other groups. I just don't think FUCK THE UAF represents a debate.

It's the culmination of a eight-year debate about the UAF and its failures on these boards.

My daughters have been on the TUC anti cuts marches (they chose to go as their mum was made redundant and I faced redundancy) which was called by the TUC. The TUC and the unions have been awful in fighting the cuts etc. Me saying fuck the TUC seems a really bad starting place for encouraging my daughters to get involved in class politics. Explaining why I disagree with their tactics seems far better.

OK. Do that then, explain why sticking with UAF is better than abandoning it.

A coherent argument at a union meeting about whether to support the UAF or support the local Trades Council would be a legitimate debate regardless of whether or not I agree. It is not the same as standing up and saying I hope the rape crisis in the SWP causes the UAF to go under or fuck the UAF.

The Delta debacle is a serious failure on the part of the UAF - the structures and the set-up. He was even sent as their representative to Greece after all this stuff came out in the open. Are people wrong to say stuff the SWP and stuff the SWP-led-and-controlled UAF in the wake of Delta scandal? How many more botched rape investigations of UAF-SWP leaders would this need? There's two victims of Delta in this instance, you want people to hold off, although it's not clear why. Something meaningless about your daughters being put off the left for good or something.

I don't understand your reference to petitions being about state bans on marches etc.
When we had threats to burn us out of our house (me and my partner had committed the crime of supporting asylum seekers) from the BNP and letters with razorblades on it our neighbours were petitioned by local anti racists to gain support for us.

You know exactly what it's about. UAF petitions calling on local authorities to push police to cancel EDL gatherings.

I don't understand the relevance of your example. Petitioned for what?
Support for you - how? A petition against threats? You're going to have to explain.

I have been involved in similar petitioning for others as well as petitioning to demand that the local council removed racist graffiti.

The first ANL was 100% against this kind of call. It organised its own activities - the graffiti would be whitepainted out and slogans against the social contract or government cuts be painted over the top - not something a local council does.

I don't understand what the problem is with that? It may not bring down fascism but it does raise the issue and seeks to get others involved.

For what tho'? Involved for petitioning. Discussion and action can take place without the petitions.

I have worked with CRE group; socialists in different groups; my trade union and various anti nazi groups...their were many weird ideas suggested and I didn't agree with some...I just could not and can not drum the venom for the that would lead me to make statements like those I originally challenged

OK, so.

From the responses I'm obviously missing the point so had best call it a day.

Ok. There's no animosity here. Read the UAF threads, and make your points, if possible without an 'appeal to my daughters' it makes me sort of itch to want to argue on the basis of my family and I don't want to do that.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Apparently the "students, we don't need no stinking students" motion put forward by a couple of freelancing CC faction enthusiasts and passed by Tottenham Branch has now been withdrawn.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Spot on BB.

Btw stay solid on here BB has you have been. This thread throws up classic stuff. That most of the respondents to you don't know jack about how the SWP operates or its history, but think they do. That includes you too Das Uberdog. Anyway BB's got you licked all over.

Hiya butch, longtime no joust. See your still sailing in the trade winds with your rusty cannons. See you in the next few years on here folks.

Oh and rebel warrior says hello again BB.

This is what I always imagine those made up "plenty of people have private messaged to me to show their support" messages look like.

 

[butchersapron]

That most of the respondents to you don't know jack about how the SWP operates or its history, but think they do.

Do we not gumbert?

 

[imposs1904]

Spot on BB.

Btw stay solid on here BB has you have been. This thread throws up classic stuff. That most of the respondents to you don't know jack about how the SWP operates or its history, but think they do. That includes you too Das Uberdog. Anyway BB's got you licked all over.

Hiya butch, longtime no joust. See your still sailing in the trade winds with your rusty cannons. See you in the next few years on here folks.

Oh and rebel warrior says hello again BB.

post of the year

 

[bolshiebhoy]

There's a reasonable chance that tomorrow's Observer might be where the much threatened new claims are made. Although, I suppose there's no reason that it has to be - mainstream papers won't be choosing their moment based on the SWP's internal calendar.

Had a quick look, can't find it. Just Cohen defending the Iraq War and the toppling of Saddam on the anniversary.

 

[ViolentPanda]

....but I would work against racism and fascism with a labour party member or a UAF member. It's the inability to do this that also damages the left in my opinion

So, not wishing to form a broad front with individuals who are members of groups who wish to hegemonise political discourse as, for example, UAF does with regard to anti-fascism, damages the left?
I'd argue that it actually preserves a bit of basic integrity with regard to representation of certain matters (such as racism) by making sure that issues aren't drowned in a soup of homogeneous opinion, so that different "takes" on strategy and tactics, on the very discourses behind racism, ensure a heterogeneity of opinion, from which the best approaches can be drawn. UAF and its' members don't do that, they say "work our way or not at all, use our language or don't speak at all". As someone who's been an anti-fascist since the 1970s, I've lived through the Trots failing to help deal with local racism when the NF was trying it on, on countless council estates in the '70s. I watched those who actually took on the boneheads get expelled from the SWP (UAF's big brother) in the '80s. I facepalmed with despair seeing eejits screaming "no platform for the fascist BNP" in engagements that often merely reinforced stereotypes of trot fuckwittery.
If you want people to rally round such decorative but ultimately-useless bodies and individuals, fair enough. Don't expect "the left" to agree wholeheartedly with you, though.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm not an anarchist but imo it'd leave us much better off, it'd give people opportunity to build an anti-fascist movement that firstly) actually effective and secondly ) not linked to a parasitic Leninist cult run by rape apologists.

There's nothing worse than seeing the SWP loyalists using the UAF as a shield to justify their shit party and their shit way of operating, as if the decline in the EDL and BNP had anything to do with them. It's utterly dishonest.

You mean the BNP whose actual vote almost doubled at Barking and Dagenham (which was held by Labour thanks to the judicious application of a "vote Labour to keep out the BNP" canvassing rhetoric put out by the activists that parachuted in for the last week before the election) despite the UAF?
And you're absolutely right, of course. The "decline" of the EDL and BNP is to do with poor leadership and inept strategy, not to do with any efficacy on the part of Weyman's Warriors.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm quite glad the guard has slipped and the naked hatred of everyone in the swp and uaf (kids included) is out in the open. I was getting bored of all the "yes we know the swp is full of good people who've done a lot for our side but their leaders are shit" half truths so it's refreshing to have butchers and others make explicit their contempt for a huge portion of the existing left. This attitude would be the filth Pat Stack referred to and why active swpers don't touch sites like these with a barge pole.

I bet you wish you were as adept as manufacturing propaganda as the CC. If you were, the blatant shite above might have a chance of being taken seriously, at least by people who share your rather sad obsession for taking the reactionary line with regard to the worth of the SWP.

 

[ViolentPanda]

OMG!!!!! the guard has slipped and the naked hatred of everyone in the swp and uaf (kids included) is out in the open!!!!!

The guard has indeed slipped, and BB has fallen face-first into the fire.

 

[butchersapron]

As it happens, i met a man who fell into a fire yesterday - he told me i was right to slip on the coal and burn half my face off.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Spot on BB.

Btw stay solid on here BB has you have been. This thread throws up classic stuff. That most of the respondents to you don't know jack about how the SWP operates or its history, but think they do. That includes you too Das Uberdog. Anyway BB's got you licked all over.

Hiya butch, longtime no joust. See your still sailing in the trade winds with your rusty cannons. See you in the next few years on here folks.

Oh and rebel warrior says hello again BB.

Poor old gumball.