Should socialists vote for the SNP at 2015 general election?

[redcogs]

Tommy Sheridan's call for socialists to tactically vote for the SNP at next years general election raises numbers of important issues for those of us in Scotland. As a disenfranchised armchair leftist, my initial inclination is to support Tommy's view, but i need some help to clarify my thinking.. What do you lot think?

Last weeks referendum result has revealed that for huge numbers of working class people Labour are now (at long last) exposed for what they always were, the intimates of big business, and the vigourous opponents of progressive causes like Scottish independence. Labour's eclipse by the SNP could well see them relegated into the same deep chasm that the Scottish Tory party have been in for decades, something which i would entirely welcome.

But i'm nervous about squandering my vote on the SNP, an organisation which may not be able to maintain its current social democratic posture for very long when another financial crisis futher destabilises the good ship Caledonia. Any advice or observations are welcome.

 

[weepiper]

I love how Tommy is trying to present this as his idea and not one that thousands of pissed off Yes voters have come to by themselves there's some chat of the SNP, Scottish Greens and the SSP fightibg the general election as a Yes Alliance which I think has legs.

 

[redcogs]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobil...next-year-and-aim-for-2020-indyref.1411326140

Tommy's statement

 

[danny la rouge]

As a non-misogynist who distrusts ego-maniacal self-publicists, my initial reaction is to ignore the twat.

As to the question of voting SNP, no, I don't think so. There are networks and contacts that should be kept up and deepened post-referendum, but this is not the way forward.

 

[redcogs]

i'm a bit uncomfortable with the word 'twat' danny, i guess that makes me a non misogynist as well.

There is logic in punishing the purveyors of the 'No' result via the ballot surely? Since about 1997 i've spoiled my vote at general elections, but, like yourself i'm angry that a progressive movement for change has been derailed, partly by contemptible politicians from political party's whose main reason for existence is to protect the interests of the wealthy. Of course nurturing existing radical networks that have flourished from the Yes campaign can be the immediate priority, but the gen elec and its outcome for Scottish people seems to me to be a slightly separate matter.

 

[muscovyduck]

No. 'Forget about socialism for now' has never worked as a political tactic, ever.

 

[redcogs]

Do you believe that tactical voting is never advisable muscovyduck?

 

[muscovyduck]

Do you believe that tactical voting is never advisable muscovyduck?

I'm not going to lie, I'm not sure. Not in general elections in the current climate. That's what people have been doing when they vote labour. And look at where it's got us.

I'd say, as an individual, if the SNP were the most leftwing party on the ballot paper then it's up to you. But we're not at the general election yet. I don't think telling people to tactically vote SNP is a good idea.

 

[redcogs]

Tommy suggests that sending a battalion of SNP MPs to Westminster mandated against austerity would be a very effective means of disrupting 'politics as usual' in parliament.

Maybe its a bit too idealistic to hope for such a result - but isn't there merit in a situation where another hung parliament (not a certainty, but a possibility) could be used to secure a futher indy referendum?

 

[Pickman's model]

redcogs no

next

 

[Pickman's model]

Tommy suggests that sending a battalion of SNP MPs to Westminster mandated against austerity would be a very effective means of disrupting 'politics as usual' in parliament.

Maybe its a bit too idealistic to hope for such a result - but isn't there merit in a situation where another hung parliament (not a certainty, but a possibility) could be used to secure a futher indy referendum?

mandated against austerity?

 

[tony heath]

mandated against dodgy deals with the Tories?

 

[ayatollah]

Sheridan is an unprincipled rabble-rousing opportunist. He always has been. He is one of a long line of supposed "socialists" who shamelessly ride a petty nationalist bandwagon whilst claiming that this is from "Socialist objectives". In fact Tommy and his crew are happy to present an entirely fictional past history of Scotland to anyone who will listen - "Scotland as Imperialist victim" - rather than the reality of "Scotland as equal partner, and major beneficiary, of a united Welsh/English/Scottish , British Imperialist rampage across the globe. Tommy and his cronies are little different to those Italian "Left Nationalists" of the early 20th century who claimed Italy as a whole was a "proletarian nation" - A position eventually subsumed within Italian fascism's ideological base - as an argument for Italian colonial expansion.

Lets be clear, the SNP is a fully capitalist petty nationalist party- that has in recent years "tacked leftwards" in rhetoric, though not in policy implementation at all - to outflank the rapidly rightward moving Scottish (and of course UK) Labour Party. The SNP has already been caught out recently for planning major cuts in the Scottish NHS - and if "independence" had been achieved on 18th September, the SNP had no intention of creating a equalitarian socialist state - far from it - it quite openly intended to set up yet another tax haven, low corporation tax, capitalist state. There is NO chance any SNP MP's in Westminster pursuing a "Anti-austerity" line in the Westminster Parliament - or pursuing one in the Scottish Parliament .

Those socialists who have fallen for the "leftist" bullshit spewed out by the RIC campaigners as they supported the petty nationalist, divisive, Scottish independence bandwagon, have actually fallen for petty nationalism in its quite common "leftish" flavour - yet again. When will Lefties learn to avoid the siren call of petty nationalism ? It is sweeping across Europe as the Global capitalist crisis bites ever deeper into working class living standards - and charlatans like Tommy Sheridan jump on this petty nationalism to build (or in Tommy's case - rebuild from scratch) their personal political fortunes.

Britain needs a genuinely mass radical socialist party drawing the entire working class into resistance to the capitalist offensive - joined up with similar parties across Europe. Falling for divisive petty nationalism, often portraying a Left face to attract the working class (that was the whole point of the word "Socialist and "Workers" in the National Socialist German Workers Party title of German fascism) , is a recipe for division and disaster for the British working class.

 

[SpookyFrank]

mandated against austerity?

Yeah I'm not sure about that bit. A 'mandate' from the electorate is at best a sort of vague gentlemans' agreement, at worst not even a thing at all. Cameron's lot were 'mandated' to preserve the NHS, for example.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

The line of march for the conservative left continues. This isn't their first and won't be their last alliance/ bandwagon jumping with those who are diametically opposed to the interests of the class that the left professes to 'lead'.

 

[dennisr]

This is the Socialist Party Scotland's take on Sheridan's call:

http://socialistpartyscotland.org.u...p-2015-build-mass-working-class-party-instead

This bit it interesting:

"There are ructions inside the Labour-affiliated trade unions, especially those who advocated a ‘No’ vote. Usdaw, the shop workers union, sent a letter to all its Scottish members calling on them to vote No. It has been reported that 13% of the Usdaw membership in Scotland has resigned from the union in protest."

"Unite the union, which adopted a neutral stance on the referendum, is receiving many requests from members looking to cancel their membership of the union because it is affiliated to the Labour Party. In response, Unite is rushing out forms to members allowing them to withdraw from the political fund, much of which goes to Labour, in the hope that they will remain members of the union. Unison, who also did not make a recommendation to its members on the referendum, are also reporting a series of resignations from the union as workers anger over Labour’s role escalates."

Sheridan's ego really isn't the main issue here.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

"There are ructions inside the Labour-affiliated trade unions, especially those who advocated a ‘No’ vote. Usdaw, the shop workers union, sent a letter to all its Scottish members calling on them to vote No. It has been reported that 13% of the Usdaw membership in Scotland has resigned from the union in protest."

"Unite the union, which adopted a neutral stance on the referendum, is receiving many requests from members looking to cancel their membership of the union because it is affiliated to the Labour Party. In response, Unite is rushing out forms to members allowing them to withdraw from the political fund, much of which goes to Labour, in the hope that they will remain members of the union. Unison, who also did not make a recommendation to its members on the referendum, are also reporting a series of resignations from the union as workers anger over Labour’s role escalates."

Sheridan's ego really isn't the main issue here.

I'm quite puzzled by this. While it was incredibly foolish, presumptuous and frankly patronising for any union to advise its members which way to vote, what did they expect the British Labour Party to do? Did they expect them to come out for 'yes'? But two-thirds of Labour voters voted 'no'. The anger here is misplaced, I think - there were a great many in the Labour movement who didn't want independence. Not politicians, just regular working folk. They said 'no', and not because their union or Labour or anyone else told them to. Face up to it.

The reaction of some Scottish nationalists to defeat last week has been very, very ugly.

 

[redcogs]

Havn't the working class in the UK been told, for decades, by various socialists, that Labour is a "fully capitalist" organisation in the way you describe the SNP ayatollah? The same socialists have then advocated a tactical vote for Labour at every general election that i can remember!

Please explain why a tactical vote for the SNP would be any more disastrous than the numerous tactical votes for Labour that have been urged upon us by the 57 varieties of trot-types across the years?

 

[butchersapron]

It normally takes a war to turn socialists into nationalists - maybe Sheridan is trying to do everyone a favour by cutting out the middle-man?

A large part of the existing SNP support (i'm waiting on reports on the membership) voted NO - giving weight to the idea that many tories simply moved their support across during the tories downward spiral in scotland. If the party has doubled it's membership in a week with 50% now being pure nationalist/pro-independence supporters then that party is not going to smoothly achieve its aims, it's going to have to fight a large chunk of its old support base and argue for things that they just openly voted against. It's going to cause trouble inside and outside the party.

To add the existing levels of SNP support to that coming from it fresh from the referendum - and on the basis of a simple call for independence (or that voting for SNP will force a process leading to this due to the electoral make up of the next westminster parliament) is madness and will paint a false picture - both socially and in terms of electoral expectations. It would be, to again, not take seriously those who supported NO and their reasons for doing so. And it would see a huge drop in votes and support from the NO part of the SNP support. And where would these union supporting former tories go?

The left will have spent serious time effort and resources urging and building support for a neo-liberal nationalist party that, largely as a result of a process the left is a key part of, will be losing ground electorally. Total utter mess and terrible politics.

 

[danny la rouge]

i'm a bit uncomfortable with the word 'twat' danny, i guess that makes me a non misogynist as well.

There is logic in punishing the purveyors of the 'No' result via the ballot surely? Since about 1997 i've spoiled my vote at general elections, but, like yourself i'm angry that a progressive movement for change has been derailed, partly by contemptible politicians from political party's whose main reason for existence is to protect the interests of the wealthy. Of course nurturing existing radical networks that have flourished from the Yes campaign can be the immediate priority, but the gen elec and its outcome for Scottish people seems to me to be a slightly separate matter.

My apologies for causing offence. I don't see "twat" as a gendered term, and sometimes forget that others do.

However, let's not make this about Tommy. Let's look at the principles.

I'm not against tactical voting as a principle; indeed, I think it's got more going for it than straightforward "representational" voting. I've been involved in "tactical voting" campaigns before. For example, a group I was involved in recommended how best to register an anti war vote in each constituency and list in the 2003 Holyrood general election. But that was a specific campaign with specific outcome in mind.

So, does this come into that category? No, I don't think it does at present. I have several problems with it: the terms are too vague, the suggested support for the SNP too open-ended, and the chances of success as yet ill-defined.

Take it all back a step or two. Before there was a devolved parliament in Edinburgh, the SNP's policy was not to hold a referendum. It was only devolution that led to the referendum policy (for reasons I've discussed before). It used to be that the SNP said their policy was that were they to win a majority of Scotland's Westminster seats, they'd take that as a mandate to start negotiating an independence settlement.

Of course, they never got close. So, that's two problems: what are their chances of success this time? And, will they revert to the policy of "majority of seats = mandate to negotiate"? This last point is important. I think another referendum so quickly would be a mistake for all sorts of reasons. I understand that people are saying that the Vow has already been backtracked on, and it has, but my issue with that is that we don't know how many people would have voted Yes but for the Vow; maybe they're Unionists anyway. So there would need to be clear evidence that the No side has backtracked. Between now and May 2015, there would need to be widespread anger from No voters that the Westminster parties had misled them (rather than from Yes voters!). So some ground work needs to be done there.

However, the advantage of organising around a Westminster vote is that the SNP is not going to form the government in Westminster, unlike at Holyrood. So, their neoliberal-lite policies are actually less of a stumbling block in this case. They would need to, however, base their whole campaign on the mandate for negotiation and the duplicity of the Westminster parties.

Is the Scottish public ready for that, after the 2 year campaign we've just had? And would there be a chance of the SNP winning 30 seats or more. At the moment I'd say the answer to both of those question is no.

 

[gosub]

I'd have SNP at about 20 seats, why do they need 30?

 

[danny la rouge]

I'd have SNP at about 20 seats, why do they need 30?

That's a majority of Scottish seats.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Just because people voted 'no', that doesn't automatically make them 'Unionists'. One of the problems with this referendum is that it's forced people into one of two camps, both of which contain people saying 'If you're not with us, you're against us'.

 

[danny la rouge]

The thing is, supporting independence was a tactic, not a principle. It was a good idea for what the working class could get out of it. It's not worth expending our energy on if it isn't achievable. There are far more important things that can be achieved with what we've built in this campaign that will improve lives here and now, not at some unidentifiable point on our great grandchildren's lives or maybe never. I don't believe in suffering now for paradise after death.

 

[ayatollah]

This is the Socialist Party Scotland's take on Sheridan's call:

http://socialistpartyscotland.org.u...p-2015-build-mass-working-class-party-instead

This bit it interesting:

"There are ructions inside the Labour-affiliated trade unions, especially those who advocated a ‘No’ vote. Usdaw, the shop workers union, sent a letter to all its Scottish members calling on them to vote No. It has been reported that 13% of the Usdaw membership in Scotland has resigned from the union in protest."

"Unite the union, which adopted a neutral stance on the referendum, is receiving many requests from members looking to cancel their membership of the union because it is affiliated to the Labour Party. In response, Unite is rushing out forms to members allowing them to withdraw from the political fund, much of which goes to Labour, in the hope that they will remain members of the union. Unison, who also did not make a recommendation to its members on the referendum, are also reporting a series of resignations from the union as workers anger over Labour’s role escalates."

Sheridan's ego really isn't the main issue here.

There is no doubt that significant sections of the Scottish working class have been drawn into supporting the myth-based attraction of a supposedly "independent Scotland" - supposedly awash with socialistic milk and honey for ever more. That is happening all across Europe - particularly in France with huge working class support for the currently "left faking" National Front.I listened to Marine Le Pen on RT on the ghastly Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership deal recently - and if you didn't know she was a dyed in the wool fascist, you'd have thought she was a socialist.

So what should the Left Do ? Jump on the petty nationalist bandwagon by going along with the SNP bullshit ? No. The Left needs to take it on the chin and tough it out - and stick to insisting on the long term need for joined up socialist internationalism and working class solidarity across all petty nationalist boundaries - through unity in action against todays Austerity Offensive. That significant (but still minority) sections of the working class have fallen, hook and sinker, for the SNP nationalist message is no justification for colluding with this poisonous ideology - even with a pseudo socialist surface gloss.

 

[gosub]

That's a majority of Scottish seats.

which means nothing (currently) in how Westminster operates. Also think reducing the majorites in the remaining seats would make things healther, less lobby fodder, more concerned for keeping their jobs

 

[danny la rouge]

Just because people voted 'no', that doesn't automatically make them 'Unionists'.

Indeed. But to assume that they're all duped pro-independence folk is a mistake.

 

[rioted]

Once again we'll go through the usual lefty analysis of "what we need is.... blah blah blah" and the confusion of decentralisation and nationalism. But what do these oh-so-pure socialists (and the always perfect Butchersapron) actually suggest. Either come out and say something positive "vote for this party", advocate NOT voting in general elections at all (my position) or SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!

 

[danny la rouge]

which means nothing (currently) in how Westminster operates.

Here's a thing. Read the whole post #20 and get back to me.

 

[brixtonscot]

Sheridan's ego really isn't the main issue here.

CWI/Socialist Party are quite happy to opportunistically use Sheridans massive ego when it suits them.
Neither is it about the collective ego of a tiny wee trot sect so desperate for attention by causing confusion by naming their francise in Scotland , Socialist Party Scotland ( not Scottish Socialist Party )