Infiltration of groups, movements and parties: How much is it happening?

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I'm not inclinced to give specifics (and wouldnt expect others to) but a fair few conversations ive had down the years lead to believe that there is indeed a lot of spying going on by the state and probable rigging of the movement.

Come to think of it, it would be easy for the state to pay a handsome professional salary to someone who pretends to be an activist and effectively spies or steers things in ways which the state can control.

Another Green Party member told me years ago that he would be insulted had we not been "got at", but I suppose all political parties are.

Do you know for a fact that this sort of thing goes on?

Like I say no names no pack drill...

 

[Plato1983]

the movement.

What is this 'The Movement' you speak of?

 

[Bob_the_lost]

What is this 'The Movement' you speak of?

Welsh forum innit.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

What is this 'The Movement' you speak of?

You know, broadly based anti-capitalist and environmentalist direct action. Progressive / radical and left political organisations. That kind of thing. I dont want to be specific and write an essay defining "the movement". I'm sure plenty others have tried if you Google

 

[Plato1983]

Oh, well I am going to be a tad pedantic here, but should you not mean the movements.

I myself am not on the left politically, but I do know of the sectarianism and hostilities that plague it. Anarchists vs. Leninists and Trotskyists vs. more or less everyone else and themselves etc...

 

[Charlie Drake]

Not much of a 'Movement' then, is it. Like the Workers' Solidarity Movement in Ireland with about 12 people in it (snigger...)

No, sorry, I know what you mean...proceed.

 

[Dubversion]

I myself am not on the left politically...

no shit, sherlock.

 

[Plato1983]

no shit, sherlock.

Neither am I on the right.

I personally find the left-right paradigm flawed.

I do however oppose the free market and the capitalist system, just that I could place myself on that as being left wing, given my view on the need for the state.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

movements is fine with me

yes it is pedantic

 

[Charlie Drake]

Thing is, I think the 'anti-capitalist' movement/s are so weak and marginalised at the moment I don't think the powers that be are taking much notice of them, they're more likely looking at the 'far-right' and the little matter of 'militant islam'. I mean it might go on, but i can't think why....

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Ah fuck it, let's just say it's the SWP's fault and be done with it!

 

[Maggot]

Come to think of it, it would be easy for the state to pay a handsome professional salary to someone who pretends to be an activist and effectively spies or steers things in ways which the state can control.

Spying yes, steering things in ways the state can control - unlikely.

In the McLibel documentary, it was said that there were sometimes as many spooks as activists at London Greenpeace meetings. And there were actually 2 groups of infiltrators who hadn't been told about each other. There were employed by McDonalds rather than the state though.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Thing is, I think the 'anti-capitalist' movement/s are so weak and marginalised at the moment I don't think the powers that be are taking much notice of them, they're more likely looking at the 'far-right' and the little matter of 'militant islam'. I mean it might go on, but i can't think why....

Sure, those guys will be infiltrated too, and perhaps swung a certain way too. Its concievable for example that a more successful fascist party would have its uses to some. Perhaps that IS paranoid.

In truth though the BNP at power level are laughable. the Greens represent a bigger threat to status quo mid-term. SNP / Plaid: who knows? The SWP and other left parties have long been infiltrated. But as Maggot alludes, it aint neccessarily always that effective.

The main focus now will be militant islam - I guess you're right. And there is a conceivable security angle on that as we know, which is highly liable to fuck up unaccountably as we know.

I could go on, but its a real can of worms and I'd really like to know what people think.

I dont think the obvious fact that islam and fascism will be infiltrated negates the fact that the left / DA / anarchist / green causes are quite possibly heavily got at.

Like I say its probably not that hard to do, very old fashioned really.

 

[Azrael]

Thing is, I think the 'anti-capitalist' movement/s are so weak and marginalised at the moment I don't think the powers that be are taking much notice of them, they're more likely looking at the 'far-right' and the little matter of 'militant islam'. I mean it might go on, but i can't think why....

Think that's largely the case. A few years ago, maybe, but now the state is concerned with mad mullahs and those crazeee civil libertarians. Anti-capitalism hasn't been attacked as a major threat in recent years.

Right now I imagine they're keener to infiltrate the likes of Liberty. (Unless they've noticed those enuchs did the job for them years ago.) Although knowing government excess, I'm sure they keep a few spooks hanging round the Lenninist/Troskyite biffy, if only for entertainment purposes.

 

[JHE]

Like I say its probably not that hard to do, very old fashioned really.

You're right - mostly. It's very easy to infiltrate the remains of the would-be revolutionary left and most of the far right.

It's less easy for Special Branch and MI5 to infiltrate the Islamic far right. That's why MI5 are very keen to recruit people who are able to work on (or, better, with or within) the Islamist networks. Their attempt has already led to an admission that al-Q types have tried to take advantage and infiltrate MI5. MI5 claim that they've weeded out all the al-Q types during the selection process. In other words, they hope that they've weeded them out!

Your interest seems to be the infiltration of some very broadly-defined left. I expect there is some. MI5 probably still likes to keep tabs on would-be revolutionaries at least - but I doubt they bother much. I mean... why would they bother (except as an employment-protection scheme for out-of-date spooks)?

 

[Hocus Eye.]

If you suspect you have an MI5 asset in your organisation, give them plenty of work to do, and put them in charge of something that needs lots of work. They are very useful and are some of the hardest workers in the movement. They will not refuse it because it validates their worth and gives them cover. Also give them the information they need. What have you to fear from the truth about oppositon to the Government being known?

 

[JHE]

If you suspect you have an MI5 asset in your organisation, give them plenty of work to do, and put them in charge of something that needs lots of work. They are very useful and are some of the hardest workers in the movement. They will not refuse it because it validates their worth and gives them cover. Also give them the information they need. What have you to fear from the truth about oppositon to the Government being known?

Your advice is very similar to the view taken by the late Tony Cliff - founder, leader and principal ideologue of the Social Workers Party.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

If you suspect you have an MI5 asset in your organisation, give them plenty of work to do, and put them in charge of something that needs lots of work. They are very useful and are some of the hardest workers in the movement. They will not refuse it because it validates their worth and gives them cover. Also give them the information they need. What have you to fear from the truth about oppositon to the Government being known?

Sound and entertainng stuff, but of course only works if you KNOW and keep it secret you know. Not all that likely

 

[John Grean]

Ah fuck it, let's just say it's the SWP's fault and be done with it!

Interesting you should say that. I was a member of the SWP a number of years ago and I suspect that of the 20 or so people I met (but encountered hundreds) that at least 3 or 4 were state agents or touts.

Difficult thing with the SWP is that it's difficult to work out whether you don't like certain individuals because they are weirdoes or because they work for the police. However, I remember some people I didn't like who I didn't suspect were police.

Worthy of note were the two BNP infiltrators who got themselves into the SWSS (SWP student group) a few years ago. They were regarded as such good "comrades" they were promoted in place of two genuine SWP'ers! (Clearly the SWP just wanted to keep them occupied ). They even got their photo taken with George Galloway!!!

 

[urbanrevolt]

Is the left really important enough to spy on? Probably, they do as a kind of training and obviously to some extent security services tend to perhaps exaggerate the importance of threats.

If there are spies- and may be there are- what do they think they're achieving. It may be they can disorientate people but there's enough nutters and middle class do gooders out there to do that anyway.

What is the best defence? Open discussion, democratic debate, orientation to struggles, ordinary working class people's needs.

Of course there can be times when more secretive action is needed e.g. against the fash, in major strikes, for illegal demos and actions and there security measures may well have to be used but that;s just as true for people likely to report us because of middle class ideology law-abinding nature etc.

I'm not disputing the state may conceivably have a few activists around but what should we actually be worried about? It is easy to get an exaggerated sense of our own importance

Actually I met the 2 BNP infiltrators- not sure what good they did their own organisation. To be honest, I was completely taken in- they seemed very enthusiastic, very hard working politically and very apolitical- practically indistinguishable from your average SWSS! (That was a bit of a dig but there is I'm afraid a grain of truth in there) But what did they achieve? We still did over Le Pen.

By the way got Finnon sacked from ASDA!

 

[greenman]

The classic large scale infiltration and disruption programme was the US 'COINTELPRO' - worthy of study. The chief lesson of that for social movements appears to be to keep cool, keep your head, and keep your goals and unity foremost if subjected to these tactics. Quiet counter investigation and monitoring was the best counter strategy. Paranoia and wild accusations were major allies of the FBI.
Wiki article on COINTELPRO.

 

[lostexpectation]

well ther job is to crush dissent so yes they do bother with even the lamest leftists, you see how they turn up a thousand cops to a demo of 200... etc

you think the american military would be busy but they were inflitrating , don't ask don't tell groups

and a group of progressives in a city in the US wanted to do a little alternative parade after their official holloween one got cancelled, and guess what sent a undercover cop to the meetings

ok so that might not be 'inflitrating' but a step away from it.

 

[urbanrevolt]

Quiet counter investigation and monitoring was the best counter strategy. Paranoia and wild accusations were major allies of the FBI.
.

Exactly.

 

[belboid]

Interesting you should say that. I was a member of the SWP a number of years ago and I suspect that of the 20 or so people I met (but encountered hundreds) that at least 3 or 4 were state agents or touts.

hmmm, one wonders just how unbelievable this statement is - somewhere between 101 & 114% bullshit I reckon.

More tricky is whether the idiocy is because 'John Grean' is a moron or a liar. That goes down to 91-97% for 'both' I reckon.

 

[bluestreak]

Spying yes, steering things in ways the state can control - unlikely.

In the McLibel documentary, it was said that there were sometimes as many spooks as activists at London Greenpeace meetings. And there were actually 2 groups of infiltrators who hadn't been told about each other. There were employed by McDonalds rather than the state though.

it's wonderful innit, properly gk chesterton.

we know that during the m11 and newbury campaigns there were infiltration - the police have admitted crowingly their successes. so we have to assume that most groups are. anarchist groups i have been involved have veered between being way too open and way too closed in, but that's the nature innit.

imo shows we're doing something right!

 

[likesfish]

I think if you advertise your group as planning to overthrow the state by any and all means .
the states bound to take a look

 

[urbanrevolt]

I once sold a copy of Workers Power to David Shayler who made a bee line straight for me, saying, "ah, yes. Workers Power!" in a very knowing way!

Now we've been expelled we'll obviously hope they try to send someone to infiltrate us and if not we'll demand an explanation!

 

[John Grean]

hmmm, one wonders just how unbelievable this statement is - somewhere between 101 & 114% bullshit I reckon.

More tricky is whether the idiocy is because 'John Grean' is a moron or a liar. That goes down to 91-97% for 'both' I reckon.

With respec', I was a member of the SWP and I did suspect a number of them were dodgy. It is not a lie or bullshit.

However, I left because I became disillusioned very rapidly with their politics which I now know is a very common occurence in the SWP.

What particularly irritated me about them was the way they would harp on about Marx and Lenin and the working class and revolution in the most ultra-left way imaginable.

Yet when you actually study their politics and their actions, they are little better than radical liberals.

"Let's face it, the middle class politically correct screeching of the SWP is enough to turn anyone to fascism".

Whether this is due to the flaws of their politics and personalities, or whether it is due to their control by the state is open for debate.

There is a least one leading member of the SWP who I am surprised can stomach the political correctness and there may be others! But then why do they stay?

 

[soam]

i wouldnt trust the swp members that i know as far as i could throw em...

 

[likesfish]

mind you if your a middle manger in MI5 and one of your spooks steps out of line
pick up the white fluffy cat and "Ah jenkins you have a choice 6 months up a tree with hippys or 6months with the SWP "
bwhahahaaaaaaaaaaa