Here's how to do it: 'Democratic Germany leads free-market England in football's recovery'

[editor]

This is more like it:

At their first home Premier League match this season, Chelsea, owned by the Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich, beat Reading 4-2 in front of 41,733 all-seated supporters whose season tickets at Stamford Bridge, apart from a small family area, cost a minimum £750. Last season's champions in Germany's Bundesliga, Borussia Dortmund, began this one by beating Werder Bremen 2-1, watched by 80,645 people, including 24,454 fans in a vast standing area, paying €187 (£148) for their season tickets.

That gulf in price and experience illustrates a profound difference in philosophy between hyper-commercialised, "free-market" English football and the more democratic German approach to what we used to call "the people's game". In both countries, football has been revitalised since the grim end of the 1980s, when 96 Liverpool supporters were killed in English football's worst disaster at Hillsborough, and average crowds in the Bundesliga sank to 17,291.

German football has staged a recovery every bit as remarkable as that of the English game, but without surrendering some of the popular traditions, such as standing areas for fans and cheaper tickets. In 1993, contemplating outbreaks of hooliganism at Bundesliga grounds, the German FA, the Deutscher Fussball Bund, considered following England's lead and making all-seat stadiums compulsory. It decided to keep standing areas, in a statement cherished by the Football Supporters Federation in England: "Football, being a people's sport, should not banish the socially disadvantaged from its stadia, and it should not place its social function in doubt."

A league regulation, maintained by the clubs, holds that these football companies must be majority owned (50% plus one of the shares) by its member association. So even the mightiest of clubs, the multimillion-pound giants on the European stage Bayern Munich and Dortmund, are majority-controlled by their supporter-members. Bayern, Chelsea's opponents in last season's European Champions League final, have 185,000 members who own 82% of the football company itself; 9% stakes have been sold for vast sponsorship fortunes to the German corporate giants Audi and Adidas.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/german-english-football-recovery?CMP=twt_gu

 

[youngian]

Its even a stretch calling the Premier League 'English football,' more a global capitalist sport of financial attrition.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Germany really seem to have got it right don't they. No way it'll ever happen here though.

 

[editor]

Spot on:

Football, being a people's sport, should not banish the socially disadvantaged from its stadia, and it should not place its social function in doubt.

 

[Balbi]

Dortmund protested at hanovers standing away prices last weekend by buying tickets and all exiting after ten minutes to watch the game elsewhere.

 

[editor]

Dortmund protested at hanovers standing away prices last weekend by buying tickets and all exiting after ten minutes to watch the game elsewhere.

Whereas I mostly feel ashamed of my own team's fans, these days.

 

[mattie]

My ex-boss - decent bloke and no-one's fool - held a share in Notts County (was 60% owned by a supporters' trust) but still voted to sell to what was purported (but wasn't) the Qatari royal family. Seduced by promises of former glories restored, and a seemingly willful blindness to the fact that wealthy investors generally aren't interested in the sporting pedigree or overly concerned by the social role of a football club in a community. Especially those who are unlikely to be able to find Nottingham on a map.

I worry about rugby going the same way - most English Premier clubs are owned by some form of sugar daddy, and although we've been lucky in that Bath's recent owners have had a genuine interest in the club and community this will change as the money in the game increases. We're also seeing attempts to further 'privatise' the club - the situation is a bit more complicated than as described, but in the 90s a training facility was bought by public subscription and the new owner has bought the fans out.

My season ticket used to be £150 a season, now £240. The English league has a salary cap, but there's a lot of whinging about how it hampers competitiveness in European competitions. Expect this cap to go, wages to increase, ticket prices to explode and some shark with an eye on a quick buck to take over the club. I'll probably move on to cricket at that point.

 

[biggus dickus]

Italy is really cheap as well, only time I could ever afford to be a regular at the football was when I lived in Milan and it was about 10-20 Euros for a game (it was the season when they won everything as well)
The best thing about Germany is that a different team wins it every year....

I just read on NUFC.com that Man United are selling away tickets for the League Cup game tomorrow for 45 pounds a shot. For a League Cup game!

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

My ex-boss - decent bloke and no-one's fool - held a share in Notts County (was 60% owned by a supporters' trust) but still voted to sell to what was purported (but wasn't) the Qatari royal family. Seduced by promises of former glories restored, and a seemingly willful blindness to the fact that wealthy investors generally aren't interested in the sporting pedigree or overly concerned by the social role of a football club in a community. Especially those who are unlikely to be able to find Nottingham on a map.

IIRC they actually gave the club for free to the new 'investors,' who of course turned out to be complete chancers.

 

[Onket]

Dortmund protested at hanovers standing away prices last weekend by buying tickets and all exiting after ten minutes to watch the game elsewhere.

Would have been better to not buy the tickets and then watch the game elsewhere, surely?!

 

[King Biscuit Time]

Dortmund protested at hanovers standing away prices last weekend by buying tickets and all exiting after ten minutes to watch the game elsewhere.

Am I missing something here? How is this an effective protest?

 

[Ash Mahay]

I imagine Abramovic would counter by pointing out that 3 English sides have won the CL since the last German team did.

I guess the argument depends on what you want out of the game.

 

[Onket]

Am I missing something here? How is this an effective protest?

It raises awareness, but other than that it's a pretty fucking rubbish protest if you ask me!

 

[editor]

The FA should be ashamed of the fucking mess they've let the game turn into.

 

[Onket]

I imagine Abramovic would counter by pointing out that 3 English sides have won the CL since the last German team did.

I guess the argument depends on what you want out of the game.

I couldn't give a fuck who wins the CL!

 

[editor]

I imagine Abramovic would counter by pointing out that 3 English sides have won the CL since the last German team did.

I guess the argument depends on what you want out of the game.

Affordable priced tickets, community spirit, standing areas - you know, the usual things.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I imagine Abramovic would counter by pointing out that 3 English sides have won the CL since the last German team did.

I guess the argument depends on what you want out of the game.

Same four or five teams in the top four places every bloody year. The English Premier League is of a rather poor quality overall, I would think - as shown by the comparative lack of success in the Europa League.

 

[Ash Mahay]

I couldn't give a fuck who wins the CL!

You might not but you only need to look at who supports who to see hundreds of thousands do.

 

[Ash Mahay]

Same four or five teams in the top four places every bloody year. The English Premier League is of a rather poor quality overall, I would think - as shown by the comparative lack of success in the Europa League.

Because Bayern havent dominated in Germany?

Isnt that true in most leagues?

 

[editor]

You might not but you only need to look at who supports who to see hundreds of thousands do.

I'm sure it's a great day for the supporters of one, rich team.

So what about all the other millions of supporters?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Because Bayern havent dominated in Germany?

Isnt that true in most leagues?

There's a difference. When I was a kid, Liverpool dominated in England the same way Bayern do now in Germany - winning the league almost half the time. But they didn't win it every year, and lots of other teams competed seriously for the league. Now, we can already have a very good guess at who the top four will be every year. It's shit.

This isn't just the fault of the FA, tbf. It's also the fault of the wankers who destroyed a perfectly good European cup structure. But it's still shit.

 

[Onket]

You might not but you only need to look at who supports who to see hundreds of thousands do.

Why are the supporters of that team more important than the hundreds of thousands who support other teams?

 

[Ash Mahay]

I'm sure it's a great day for the supporters of one, rich team.

So what about all the other millions of supporters?

Judging by the way many react to so called big money take overs, or talk of such, a large number of them feel the same way.

Take the Notts County story above. A lot were very happy until it turned out they were chancers and not going to propel them to the CL.

 

[Ash Mahay]

Why are the supporters of that team more important than the hundreds of thousands who support other teams?

I didnt say they were (dont confuse logical argument for an opinion) but why would they be less important either?

 

[Onket]

I didnt say they were (dont confuse logical argument for an opinion) but why would they be less important either?

There are less of them, for a start. Plus a lot of them will support whoever it is that is doing well.

 

[Ash Mahay]

There are less of them, for a start. Plus a lot of them will support whoever it is that is doing well.

Are there?

Id imagine theres just as many (if not more) tbh.

I would agree many will support whoevers doing well but isnt that kind of a valid indication of manys stance?

 

[Onket]

Are there?

Id imagine theres just as many (if not more) tbh.

I would agree many will support whoevers doing well but isnt that kind of a valid indication of manys stance?

I would like to think there are less supporters of the top five that there are of all the other football clubs in all divisions in the country, yes.

Perhaps there isn't.

 

[Ash Mahay]

Affordable priced tickets, community spirit, standing areas - you know, the usual things.

Most of that would make my wish list too but lets be honest if cheap tickets was that important wouldnt there be 50,000 at Hounslow & Iselworths match this weekend and 750 at Chelseas?

Theres nothing to stop people forming a community club ticking all the boxes you want but isnt it true that unless they reached the top theyd have poorer support than their peers playing higher up the ladder?

 

[Ash Mahay]

I would like to think there are less supporters of the top five that there are of all the other football clubs in all divisions in the country, yes.

Perhaps there isn't.

Top 5? I

So who are you leaving out?

Im seeing the majority of the PL and many fans outside the PL too. Like I said look at the reaction to many takeovers, or rumours of such.

I cant recall many fans dancing in the street at the thought of lower ticket prices, not when they can dream of the title or the CL.

 

[editor]

Most of that would make my wish list too but lets be honest if cheap tickets was that important wouldnt there be 50,000 at Hounslow & Iselworths match this weekend and 750 at Chelseas?

The higher league teams have always enjoyed bigger support than small, non-league teams so I'm not sure what your point is.