"Harriers" pub (formerly Herne Arms), Herne Hill Road/Wanless Road

[teuchter]

A planning application has just gone in for a development on the corner of Herne Hill Road and Wanless road - here - and it mentions that it was formerly the site of a pub (it's just an empty site at the moment). A bit of googling tells me it was known as the "Harriers"; in fact it's mentioned on the U75 "lost pubs" page but with no details as yet.

I can't find much more about it other than a mention of a shooting in 2001 in this slightly bizzare blog.

Does anyone have any photos of it before it was demolished? Was it an old building or was it postwar like the flats immediately adjacent to it on Herne Hill Road appear to be (in which case, was there a bombsite there)?

 

[editor]

I couldn't find anything on it when I looked, but that was a while ago.

 

[editor]

I'm guessing it was named/renamed after the Herne Hill Harriers who were founded in Milkwood Road, Herne Hill in 1889...

 

[teuchter]

The existence of the Herne Hill Harriers tends to dominate any google search on "Harriers Herne Hill Rd" unfortunately.

 

[London_Calling]

The existence of the Herne Hill Harriers tends to dominate any google search on "Harriers Herne Hill Rd" unfortunately.

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[prunus]

I remember it well - I lived round the corner from it from 2001.

It was an lovely (IMO) old Victorian pub building, red brick and tiled walls. It had another name before it was called the Harriers, under which you'll be more likely to be able to find old photos - Unfortunately I can't call it to mind at the moment... Damn shame it was demolished, at the time under part of planning permission to build new flats (in fact as a condition of its demolition), which of course never appeared (money was made selling the old bricks I understand), so it's been a hole in the ground for nearly a decade.

It was an old-school boozer in the time I knew it - never very busy, mostly older afro-caribbean gentlemen drinking Guiness quietly; there aren't many of them (the gentlemen) left now either.

Will try to recall its former name...

Edit: It was the Herne Arms. I can't find any photos frmo a quick google, but it's mentions in this 1882 Old Bailey transcript : http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.jsp?doc=188201300087

 

[teuchter]

I remember it well - I lived round the corner from it from 2001.

It was an lovely (IMO) old Victorian pub building, red brick and tiled walls. It had another name before it was called the Harriers, under which you'll be more likely to be able to find old photos - Unfortunately I can't call it to mind at the moment... Damn shame it was demolished, at the time under part of planning permission to build new flats (in fact as a condition of its demolition), which of course never appeared (money was made selling the old bricks I understand), so it's been a hole in the ground for nearly a decade.

It was an old-school boozer in the time I knew it - never very busy, mostly older afro-caribbean gentlemen drinking Guiness quietly; there aren't many of them (the gentlemen) left now either.

Will try to recall its former name...

Edit: It was the Herne Arms. I can't find any photos frmo a quick google, but it's mentions in this 1882 Old Bailey transcript : http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.jsp?doc=188201300087

Thanks for this.

Maybe a kind mod could add (formerly Herne Arms) to the thread title?

There is a planning decision report here:

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/75853C31-E885-492C-AC6C-057B9F4E142D/0/017830.pdf

from 2003. It gives permission for flats with a bar/restaurant on the ground floor. That has now lapsed presumably. The new application seems to be for residential only.

The justification in that planning report for demolishing the old building seems pretty shoddy. Firstly they say it's ok to lose the pub because it's "noisy and dangerous" and a disturbance to people living nearby, and yet they give permission to replace it with... another bar.

 

[editor]

Thanks for this.

Maybe a kind mod could add (formerly Herne Arms) to the thread title?

*Done!

 

[teuchter]

*Done!

Ta

 

[teuchter]

Here's the scheme currently being proposed:

http://shapearchitecture.co.uk/Arti...id/83/ArticleId/32/Herne-Hill-Apartments.aspx

 

[teuchter]

Well, I haven't been able to find any photos anywhere but here are some (not very amazing) drawings from the 2003 planning application to demolish it:

 

[London_Calling]

Am I right in thinking planning departments now accept an 'extra' floor on these developments, and that developers often tailor that additional space to the 'penthouse' market?

That new construction should really have a gable roof and sit with the rest of the street, shouldn't it?

 

[teuchter]

Just giving a new building the same roof profile as its neighbours is a pretty simplistic approach. There's no reason it should have a pitched roof. Old buildings have pitched roofs because they didn't have the technology to make reliable flat roofs. Pitched roofs aren't a very efficient use of space. They do reduce the apparent overall height of the building as viewed from the street - but the same can be achieved by setting back the top floor as has been done here, which is a very common strategy.

In any case most of Wanless street has butterfly roofs (which means you don't see the pitch from the street) as you can see in the visualisation.

If you're inserting a new building into a continuous terrace then I think there's a good argument for matching the existing lines and heights. However, this is on a corner so I think it's fine for it to be a bit higher than the terrace - think of it as a kind of bookend. Note that it sticks out into the pavement a bit anyway. The main reason to object to its height would be that it cuts out daylight to surrounding properties, more than the original building. That might be a valid complaint here. I see that it seems to have got a little higher than the scheme previously given permission (as well as losing the commercial use on the ground floor).

Although it's not exactly revolutionary architecture at least it's not one of the truly terrible mock-historical abominations that Lambeth has allowed to be built elsewhere.

 

[CH1]

Does anyone have any photos of it before it was demolished? Was it an old building or was it postwar like the flats immediately adjacent to it on Herne Hill Road appear to be (in which case, was there a bombsite there)?

View attachment 13247

The Harriers was one of the pubs which the police developed a fixation about in terms of being a source of drugs and other criminal activities - others are the Green Man and the Mucky Duck (also at Loughborough Junction), and the Wellington in Acre Lane. The owner of the Harriers presumably demolished it post haste to avoid it being listed or any other restriction being imposed on realising the asset.
Curiously the Wellington and the Harriers are now well on the way to making a big capital gain via private rental, social housing and "shared ownership" new-build flats. The Green Man also has private rented above. Maybe it pays to have the police close you down if you are a marginal pub!
By the way the flats in that architect's view look a like "Lord Stanley Court" at the other end of Wanless Road. Another characterful but empty local boozer gone to new-build residential.

 

[teuchter]

Was the pub that was at the other end of Wanless Rd called "Lord Stanley Court" or is that just the name for the new housing there?

I'm hoping the new (ex Harriers) development will be a bit better than that one, which is visibly quite cheaply built. Whenever it rains the outlines of the concrete blockwork behind the rendered finish show through.

 

[prunus]

It was the 'Lord Stanley'. Both pubs remnants of the time when Loughborough Junction was a thriving commercial hub - trains, trams (as memorialised in the delightful 'tram close' on the other side of Hinton Road ).

I've often wondered if the hole-in-the-ground on the south corner of Wingmore and Hinton Roads was also a pub or similar - it's about the right size.

On the architectural harmony of Wanless Road - I think that horse has well and truly bolted, it's an crazy smorgasbord of styles already (have a look on streetview), so I actually think that a new building there would work better by simply having a strong aesthetic of its own rather than trying to fit in with what's already there (except I would say in height).

I strongly suspect it'll never be built anyway - the plot is for sale by auction (again...) it seems, so I imagine this is an attempt to make it more attractive.

 

[teuchter]

So, they've granted planning permission for the flats, including on the ground floor where there was previously permission only for a commercial unit. Site now being marketed for sale.

 

[prunus]

"Site Sold" now according to large billboards that have gone up in the past few days. No sign of what the plan is. The hole has probably developed a fairly complex ecosystem of its own by now.

 

[wainuijk]

Some years ago on my way home from work a crowd was standing around the Harriers site. Apparently a stolen car had crashed through the hoarding landing in the hole. I wonder if it is still there? Make a great photo if it is.

 

[teuchter]

"Site Sold" now according to large billboards that have gone up in the past few days. No sign of what the plan is. The hole has probably developed a fairly complex ecosystem of its own by now.

As of this morning the large billboards have been taken down and there is currently a man with a saw poking around.

 

[prunus]

As of this morning the large billboards have been taken down and there is currently a man with a saw poking around.

Probably thinking "what the fuck have I bought?!?"

 

[Fingers]

I remember drinking in there when i first moved to London. It was rough and ready and we used to head there after all the other pubs had closed (before the licensing laws were loosened) as they used to have all night lock ins.

 

[teuchter]

Now there are "for sale" signs up again.

 

[prunus]

Now there are "for sale" signs up again.

Hmm. Looks like the Wanless Hole will be with us for a while longer then. Shame.

 

[teuchter]

Looks like something is now happening as they are in the process of clearing the site as I type.

 

[prunus]

Any further sign of activity here? It looks sadly not from going past it. The whole demolition of a perfectly serviceable and attractive building on false pretext and then leaving us with a hole in the ground for a decade really riles me, I'd really like them to do something with that place.

 

[teuchter]

There's been a guy in there filling up a skip with rubbish for the past few days. They've also made a gate in the hoarding which has got various safety signs on it like an entrance to a building site, so it may be that they are preparing to start construction. The "for sale" signs have also disappeared.

 

[teuchter]

This is now rising above the hoarding.

 

[editor]

I've been walking past that site for ages without realising it's where the pub was.

 

[bolgerp]

I do wish they'd hurry up and finish. I pass by this twice a day (on my way to and from the train station for work). As I only live around the corner, I have to navigate around the hoarding which has taken up the entire footpath on the Herne Hill Road part and walk on the road to get past it, which is always dodgy during rush hour as there's a constant stream of traffic and you can't see any cars coming out of Wanless Road either. It's been like this for aaaages..... I could cross the road and then back over again to get to the train station, but that also means avoiding traffic.