Greece: Euro crisis
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danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
What? Doesn't it count?
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
About as relevant as who paid for Hadrians Wall.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Relevant to what? The point is that Germany was allowed to default and rebuild after WWII because the US saw that as in its interests. By contrast, there is no "Marshall Plan" for Greece now. Why not? It's analogous to the deal China got at Toronto. Why doesn't Greece get that? Why not allow Greece to default now, because it will eventually, and the current plan for Greece won't deliver growth: the similar plan for Ireland hasn't rebuilt growth there. So, public sector workers, pension holders etc in Greece get pain for x number of years, but at the end will default anyway, and growth there will not be rebuilt, because 'entrepreneurs' etc are leaving in droves. So why does this apply to Greece, but not China, and not Germany in the post War period?
The answer is that it isn't an economic necessity at all; it's a political project.
The answer is that it isn't an economic necessity at all; it's a political project.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
There appears to be a lack of coherence about the response, though. Many in Germany are now calling for a 50 percent markdown on the debt, which, reading your link, is similar to West Germany's treatment post-WW2. Crucially, that agreement also had a clause saying that payments could be suspended where economic conditions required it. That's the kind of thing that's needed now - a complete suspension of debt payments until the economy has improved followed by a greatly reduced repayment. There are sane heads in Germany and elsewhere calling for this kind of thing.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
So where are the demands to sort that out? Where are the international demands that Greece should make its many wealthy citizens and companies pay up?
I don't see conspiracy, fwiw. Germany and others would be much better off with a Greece not in trouble.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
Well now, this is not just true for Greece is it? You could say the same for the UK. http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/14/greece-taxes-debt-opinions-contributors-richard-murphy.html
Problems with tax collection are not simply technical issues. They are political issues, to do with who has the power to avoid paying tax, whether legally or illegally. You can't just pick on one country and say their economy would be fine if they collected taxes properly. We'd be living in a different world if any country were able to collect taxes properly. They aren't.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Who is seeing those?
I think the Greek government have really fucked up the Greek economy and to a certain extent they've done this with the collusion of the Greek public, who wanted to have their cake and eat it by having a large Public sector, but also had a widespread laissez-faire attitude to paying taxes. Not that I'm saying either that they're repsonsible for the global financial crisis or that other governments have been free from the kind of mis-management that left Greece vulnerable.
However i just don't think it's a case of the poor Greeks and the big bad banks (not that I have any love for the banks, they are actually responsible for the global financial crisis). I think governments and the electorate that put them in power should take some responsibilty for their financial state. That doesn't mean we should start taking punitive attitude towars them or not, within reason, help them out. But if no national govermental responsibilty is taken then it's just a recipe for the mistakes of the past to be repeated.
However i just don't think it's a case of the poor Greeks and the big bad banks (not that I have any love for the banks, they are actually responsible for the global financial crisis). I think governments and the electorate that put them in power should take some responsibilty for their financial state. That doesn't mean we should start taking punitive attitude towars them or not, within reason, help them out. But if no national govermental responsibilty is taken then it's just a recipe for the mistakes of the past to be repeated.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I think the mistakes of the past will continue to be made unless we see this for what it is: naked class war.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes. And as such of course it is nothing new. It is exactly the 'medicine' that has been dished out by the west in Latin America and Africa over the decades. It's just a bit closer to home this time.
I'm actually a tiny bit encouraged by the fact that the IMF and others are at least recognising this time that austerity measures may do more damage than good. They've never bothered themselves with that in the past.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Indeed.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I suppose the thing to remember is that the Greek government - like all governments - is there to represent big business interests. While they were happy stuffing their pockets, everything was fine. Now that the pockets are full, and the shops have all be fully looted, someone has to take the blame. Well, just like here, the blame is to be taken by "everyone", because "we're all in it together", and "we all" made hay while the sun shone. Except, "we" aren't all in it together. Some aren't in it at all: those with the bulging pockets.
As ever, there is to be social security for the rich, but for the poor? We "can't afford it"; it's "living beyond our means".
This is nothing new, no surprise, and business as usual.
As ever, there is to be social security for the rich, but for the poor? We "can't afford it"; it's "living beyond our means".
This is nothing new, no surprise, and business as usual.
"Domino effect " anyone ? after Greece place your bets for Italy or ... .. Spain ? Presumeably the Hedge Fund Speculators really ARE doing exactly that. A world economy run like a casino ... you couldn't make it up ! It would be positively exciting if I was sitting off planet watching, but down here it's getting scary isn't it !
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes let Italy and Spain and Ireland follow. The sooner the better. The day after the defaults have happened we can all get on with things. It is not the end. It is the beginning of recovery. The creditors will get over it. They had some spare capital and lost it In a bet. Ah well they'll get over it.
A Dashing Blade
Takes horses to water but can't make donkeys drink
Don't understand, in exactly what way is the world economy run like a casino? Please elaborate.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
You aren't allowed to count cards, and the croupiers are hot.
A Dashing Blade
Takes horses to water but can't make donkeys drink
Since when has reducing spending NOT cut debt?
the reality is more akin to . . . "You owe us a a shade over EUR8bn payable by the end of December, you havn't got it. What are you gonna do about it."
As we stand on the brink of the new Big Depression , directly as the result of the unregulated speculative frenzy over the last decade and of the Financial sector it's simply comical that you DON'T apparently see the world economy as run like a casino. Still see the financial sector you work in , and no doubt draw down huge wodges of cash from, as a rational, efficient, way to direct capital flows, and hence real labour and raw material, and productive capital allocations around the world economy do you. Well dream on.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You work in finance, don't you?
You should know fucking better than to ask this kind of dipshit question.
Reducing payments to the poor in a society fucks that society's economy, lowering tax receipts and increasing various social security bills.
A Dashing Blade
Takes horses to water but can't make donkeys drink
If I'm maxed out on my credit cards one of the immediate things I'm gonna do is reduce my spending. I'm certainly not going to increase my spending.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Now. Right now.
A Dashing Blade
Takes horses to water but can't make donkeys drink
Was just querying your use of the casino analagy that's all and note that you seem unable to explain it.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Can you do other things like raise taxes? Print Money? No? then congratulations - you're not a state.
A Dashing Blade
Takes horses to water but can't make donkeys drink
Like Greece (the point of this thread) which may raise taxes but appears unable to collect them
Like Greece? Which can't atm.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
So thanks for pointing out how your household/personal debt analogy doesn't work. How much tax does the Greek state take in each year?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Maybe you could set your police on yourself for protesting at the cuts you're imposing on yourself for your own benefit?
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