Freemasons in the UK, a general discussion

[elbows]

One of the paedophile threads is getting a bit bogged down in arguments about freemasonry right now, so I though I would start a more general thread where all aspects of this stuff can be discussed.

I have not done any sizeable research into this stuff myself, I'm just starting from a point where I consider it to be unhelpful to simply blame the use and abuse of power on such organisations.

Looking for recent examples of 'fear of freemasonry' and innuendo in the press, perhaps to serve a specific agenda, I'll start with this Telegraph article from August 2011 about a national masonic lodge for police, headed by a man who dares to have a go at Cameron over cuts.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...e-attack-on-David-Camerons-riot-response.html

 

[pogofish]

Hmmm - Not had a good Masonic bunfight thread for a while!

 

[elbows]

And at the other end of the journalistic spectrum, an attempt to demystify freemasonry in the UK, from march this year.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/fea...d-trouser-legs-secrets-of-the-Freemasons.html

I didnt know the following, is it accurate?

“In the 1930s Freemasonry was relatively open but then as many as 200,000 Masons were put in the gas chambers by Hitler because he feared they were a secret power base.
“When the Germans invaded the Channel Islands, the Freemasons’ Hall was ransacked and members deported to camps. So people in Britain, fearing invasion, went underground.”

 

[stuff_it]

Some women's lodge is recruiting on twitter, apparently. I'm too stoned to google the link atm.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

Some women's lodge is recruiting on twitter, apparently. I'm too stoned to google the link atm.

Masonettes?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

The Masons...

Daft theatrical blokes who like a bit of dressing up and drama...

They are no more or less sinister than any other networking opportunity like golf clubs, genetlemans clubs, etc - possibly slightly more accessible than some and certainly classier than the Buffs or Rotarians etc.

 

[free spirit]

I have not done any sizeable research into this stuff myself,

and yet you thought you knew enough to lay into me on that thread for suggesting that the fact the father of one of the accused was the grand master for north wales for 30 odd years might just be slightly relevant.

have a good thread.

 

[elbows]

I meant the broader subject, not the north wales care home stuff.

No doubt the thread will be better without your input, and it doesnt surprise me that you dont want to engage with a thread that points out what the Nazi paranoia about freemasonry lead to.

 

[toblerone3]

How does one know, when one is dealing with a mason? What signs are there? Masons is just something I ready about on the internet and in casual/loosely argued conspiracy theories.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

How does one know, when one is dealing with a mason? What signs are there? Masons is just something I ready about on the internet and in casual/loosely argued conspiracy theories.

If you shake hands with a man and he tickles the skin between thumb and index finger in mid shake then he is a mason.

 

[elbows]

One clue is that they wont start dribbling in your ear about masons being a gateway to evilll.

 

[weltweit]

I was once invited to join the Masons, a nice enough friend who invited me, back when I was more of a mover and shaker, haven't been invited since I fell on hard times. I didn't like the idea.

 

[DotCommunist]

the ones that don't do debased cabbalist rituals are drinking clubs for connectivity for coppers from the 70s. Aslo they do facilitate child rape, in between meat raffles and washing of the aprons

 

[Spymaster]

How does one know, when one is dealing with a mason?

The easiest way is to ask him.

Most of us will quite happily tell you.

There are quite a few masonic Urbs.

 

[DotCommunist]

all middle class white men of course

 

[weltweit]

all middle class white men of course

Not all middle class no.

 

[DotCommunist]

doesn't count if you got bumfingered by a man in a sash, its still guildsman

 

[Spymaster]

all middle class white men of course

Far from it.

 

[Spymaster]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/fea...d-trouser-legs-secrets-of-the-Freemasons.html

I didnt know the following, is it accurate?

I don't know how many masons were actually murdered by the nazis just because of their membership. There was definitely persecution but of course a lot of freemasons would have been executed for membership of other groups, Jews, political opponents, etc. The nazis weren't keen on the equality and tolerance message expounded by freemasonry.

Masonic Lodges are associations of men who, closely bound together in a union employing symbolic usages, represent a spiritual movement, the idea of Humanity….a general association of mankind, without distinction of races, peoples, religions, social and political convictions.

The above could be from a masonic recruiting brochure if such a think existed, but was actually was actually written by Reinhart Heydrich as an explanation of why freemasonry should be considered unacceptable!

This may be of interest http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007187

 

[Spymaster]

If you shake hands with a man and he tickles the skin between thumb and index finger in mid shake then he is a mason.

Contrary to popular belief freemasons do not go around giving funny handshakes on the off-chance that the other chap could recognise him. I shake hands quite normally with people.

 

[elbows]

Cheers, it was interesting.

 

[free spirit]

One clue is that they wont start dribbling in your ear about masons being a gateway to evilll.

another being them being listed on the freeman's own website as being the top freeman in the region for 30+ years?

perhaps you might actually want to ask yourself why you and others immediately assumed a specific question about how the head freeman in north wales might have used those connections to protect his kid from accusations of paedophile activity should be shouted down and treated as if it was the equivalent of stating the holographic planes had been used to fake the 911 attacks.

Just because there are lots of wild unfounded conspiracy theories about them doesn't automatically exclude the possibility that there aren't some occasions where high ranking members of the freemasons have used their position in the freemasons to influence other masons to assist them in covering something up / getting their son out of trouble.

Or that the copper that did assist in that way might have then called in that favor at a later date when he finds himself accused in the papers of being a child molester himself (I have to wonder how this copper manage to fund a libel action against multiple well resourced media organisations for example).

IMO these are at least questions that deserve some serious attention, without someone invoking Godwins law.

 

[elbows]

This is a thread for general discussion of freemasonry, one that you apparently arent going to engage with. So please stop reading my comments here as if I am always referring to the very specific masons you are currently obsessed with using to construct an overly simplistic picture of abusive groups of people.

 

[free spirit]

This is a thread for general discussion of freemasonry, one that you apparently arent going to engage with. So please stop reading my comments here as if I am always referring to the very specific masons you are currently obsessed with using to construct an overly simplistic picture of abusive groups of people.

what do you expect me to say when you post this sort of shit about me?

and it doesn't surprise me that you dont want to engage with a thread that points out what the Nazi paranoia about freemasonry lead to.

well out of order IMO.

 

[elbows]

Actually no, I said it not to insult you, but for a very specific reason. Your sweeping generalisations about freemasonry is exactly the sort of thing that can be used to condemn whole groups of people to persecution. Its the prime reason I will go nutty about sweeping generalisations, no different to anti-semitism in this regard, and so you'l get no hint of an apology from me over this, even if my wording was less than perfect.

 

[elbows]

I also note that one of the pieces of graffiti scrawled on Saviles Glencoe house was the eye of providence.

 

[free spirit]

Your sweeping generalisations about freemasonry

you're projecting.

I've not made any sweeping generalisations about freemasonry, I've pointedly stuck to the specifics about the linkages and influence that one specific freemason who was the grand master for north wales for 30 years might have as a result of this, and the connection he might have with another admitted freemason who was a key copper covering the area his son was involved in.

check my posts on the other thread if you don't believe me, I've just checked them myself and there's nothing there that matches what you're saying.

 

[free spirit]

the masons individually may well still be corrupt / paedos etc but it's the connections they make through freemasonry, as well as potentially the activities and secrets that they witness at the lodge that can enable them to actually benefit from and get away with this corruption, particularly if it's widespread within a lodge, or other activities are that those masons wouldn't want to risk getting out.

eg in my example I gave earlier about the masonic lodge christmas party involving lots of the top coppers in the area, and a hired in group of strippers (story told to me by one of them a couple of years later), and lots of stuff going on that they'd not want getting back to their wives / public. This in itself didn't involve paedo activity, but nobody who was involved in that would be too keen on prosecuting any other members of the lodge who were there for anything they might get up to as it'd risk them making all the sordid details of their fetish parties public.

I don't think anyone's saying that all freemasons are evil, or all lodges are as bad as each other, but it absolutely is the freemasonry system that enables this to grow into a serious problem within lodges, rather than just being a few bad apples.

or were you referring to this post?

that's a bit more general I suppose, but I'm not sure how it leads to the nazi death camps.

 

[newbie]

I also note that one of the pieces of graffiti scrawled on Saviles Glencoe house was the eye of providence.

peculiar. Is that symbol a common tag in those parts? it's not round here.

 

[elbows]

or were you referring to this post?

that's a bit more general I suppose, but I'm not sure how it leads to the nazi death camps.

Thanks for finding and quoting that here, decent of you.

It doesnt lead directly to nazi death camps, but its hopefully still enough to get the gist of where I am coming from on this. I'm not calling you a nazi, I'm just trying to explore the potential pitfalls and slippery slopes people can end up on, almost without warning, if the understandable concerns about secrecy provide too fertile a ground for dangerously uninhibited fears to grow on.