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Democracy? Not if the royal family have the power of veto over legislation they dont like

Secret papers show members of the royal family have been using a veto to scrap bills/acts of Parliament that they dont like. The fallacy that the monarchy has no influence on politics in this country is falling away, its taught in the education system that the monarchy is purely a ceremonial position. Democracy in the UK? Dont make me laugh.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jan/14/secret-papers-royals-veto-bills?CMP=twt_gu

Although Andrew George was arguing for greater transparency, :confused: , he is quoted with this gem..
It shows the royals are playing an active role in the democratic process
:facepalm:
 
You're always told the monarch has only symbolic power, not power to over ride Parliament. Last time that happened the monarchs head say goodbye to its body.

The Guardian story does a (deliberately?) poor job of pointing out that despite these revelations, the symbolic nature of it may still very well be the case.

ie that nothing in the document excludes the idea that just like certain other functions and powers that the royals still have according to the rules, the decision made by the royal is not in practice their decision, because it would cause a crisis if they actually tried to make their own decision rather than doing what the government tells them.

In this case, the idea that they only refuse consent if ministers tell them to. Theoretical power vs the ability to actually use a power in practice without unthinkable consequence.

Personally I think that if you are going to have a state with a detailed structure laid out, you should really try not to have it cluttered up with historical quirks or dead ideals about where power lies, no matter if they are mere formalities. Even if its not the royals who may on occasion still be able to make use of the power, someone else might be able to in order to exert their political will by playing procedural games. And it can look bad and suspicious even if there isnt really much going on. A fair and transparent system should leave no room for people to even have to wonder whether the tail is wagging the dog or the other way round, or have to rely on an absence of detailed and specific revelations in order to be vaguely reassured that nothing too dodgy is occurring.

The revelations of the last year or so have been rather interesting, but no smoking guns that cause me to attribute more power to the royals than I already thought they had, just a fresh demonstration of why the old relics may yet have side-effects that are worth complaining about. Absent some actual revelations about how any of the consent refusal decisions were actually reached, the Price Charles lobbying stuff was of more obvious interest to me as that demonstrates a channel of potential influence that is a bit different to some rubber-stamping. But the release of that stuff was blocked. And I may have this attitude because I wasnt exactly buying the idea that the royal household was utterly impotent on every front in the first place, anymore than I am willing to jump to completely the opposite extreme now.

Aside from the numerous features of this parliamentary democracy which are well-deserving of being considered a laughing stock when explored in depth, for example some of the failures to properly separate legislative, executive & judicial branches (some of which we finally got round to tinkering with this century), much of the action, the power & influence, can be found by looking at who owns what. So I'm still more inclined to point at the property etc portfolios of certain members of the royal household when I want to shout loudly about the power and influence of the royals and their willingness to use it. That and the symbolism of having royalty at all, which sucks for a number of reasons I doubt I need to mention.
 
Look at the bill they got stopped. Stopped. Not a bill passed that was vetoed. Just a Bill that our democratically elected representatives decided to put before parliament.
 
Who actually decided to stop it though? Thats far from clear from what I've read so far, I only know what mechanism was used.
 
Is that not enough?

In terms of ranting about the awful, ludicrous, flawed structure yes its quite enough, but I think I already had that rant. My attempts to pose further questions and not make assumptions about who actually made the decision are not meant to be me letting the structure, the symbolism or the principals off the hook at all. I hope to learn more, but since I am starting from a point of pretty low regard for our states standards of democracy I am somewhat struggling to fully refresh my outrage.
 
If an important part of the story was Blairs presidential sofa being able to morph into a throne when deemed appropriate to thwart a particular bill, rather than the personal views of the queen, I think the Guardian article should have drawn more attention to that implication.
 
Wasn't Gordon Brown making noises a few years back about constitutional reform including the use of the royal prerogative?
 
Lets have a sniff of how the BBC reported the Iraq bill stuff in parliament at the time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/320514.stm

A backbench bill making Parliament's consent necessary before fresh air strikes can take place against Iraq is has failed to become law.

The bill, put forward by Labour MP Tam Dalyell, aimed to prevent new air strikes against Iraq unless two thirds of MPs backed military action.

The bill failed as it did not receive the Royal Assent.

Speaking before the his bill's rejection, Mr Dalyell said: "I am not going crawling to the Queen. This has nothing to do with her."

But Commons authorities say the bill needed the assent of the Queen as the deployment of the UK's armed forces is a prerogative power, and this bill would impose a significant limitation on the exercise of that power.

So the 1999 article incorrectly mentioned assent rather than consent, and totally failed to explore the idea that it was the government who made the decision.

But make no mistake, the fact this bill was scuppered by lack of consent in 1999 is not actually a new revelation, the Guardian just lobbed it into that article to spice it up. For example if I look at the wikipedia edit history for the page about the bill, its said the following in 2004 (sorry about the formatting):

The [[bill]]hadits [[first reading]] on [[26 January]] [[1999]], becoming Bill 35 in the 1998/1999 session, and was initially scheduled for [[second reading]] on [[16 April]][[1999]]. As a bill modifying the [[monarch]]'s [[royal prerogative|prerogative powers]], [[Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom|the Queen]] was required to consent to it being heard. This is an instance of one situation in which more direct monarchical assent than the rather technical [[Royal Assent]] is required for a bill to become an [[Act of Parliament]].
The Queen, acting under the instructions of the government, refused to signify her consent to the bill,so second reading was postponed from [[16 April]]to[[23 July]] [[1999]]. Due to the Crown's refusal to signify its consent to the bill, it was ultimately automatically dropped before it obtained its second reading.
 
The Guardian story does a (deliberately?) poor job of pointing out that despite these revelations, the symbolic nature of it may still very well be the case.

ie that nothing in the document excludes the idea that just like certain other functions and powers that the royals still have according to the rules, the decision made by the royal is not in practice their decision, because it would cause a crisis if they actually tried to make their own decision rather than doing what the government tells them.

In this case, the idea that they only refuse consent if ministers tell them to. Theoretical power vs the ability to actually use a power in practice without unthinkable consequence.
Personally I think that if you are going to have a state with a detailed structure laid out, you should really try not to have it cluttered up with historical quirks or dead ideals about where power lies, no matter if they are mere formalities.


I agree the article does muddy the waters a bit as it makes the Queen sound like Charles I on the side, whereas the important point for republicans is that crown powers allow the Prime minister to excercise executive powers without recourse to parliament.

This example from the article sounds like a royal perogative order excercised by the prime minister-

In one instance the Queen completely vetoed the Military Actions Against Iraq Bill in 1999, a private member's bill that sought to transfer the power to authorise military strikes against Iraq from the monarch to parliament.


I would be more concerned about Prince Charles though who does poke his nose into government business, often on subjects he has little qualifiaction or business doing so.

I don't unfortunately see an end to the monarchy but with the queen getting on a bit its about time parliament at least clipped her idiot son's wings a bit with an humiliating appearance in front of a select committee to confess his catalogue of busy bodying interference.
 
I think it's better not to clip his wings :D Then everyone can see the degree of busybodying that he'll get up to when he finally ascends which will hopefully bring the mockery of the *appearance* of the House of the people/Commons deciding into high relief.
 
Lets have a sniff of how the BBC reported the Iraq bill stuff in parliament at the time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/320514.stm



So the 1999 article incorrectly mentioned assent rather than consent, and totally failed to explore the idea that it was the government who made the decision.

But make no mistake, the fact this bill was scuppered by lack of consent in 1999 is not actually a new revelation, the Guardian just lobbed it into that article to spice it up. For example if I look at the wikipedia edit history for the page about the bill, its said the following in 2004 (sorry about the formatting):
Doesn't really matter who is using the prerogative - Monaarch or the govt - does it? It's the fact that it exists and can and is used that's the problem. Or a problem at least. Which opens up two fronts (or two connected parties - or at least three if you do it right) on which to attack.
 
I still think the detail matters, but I'm not saying it makes it any better. And sadly the fact it was known at the time it happens probably matters too - why wasnt there a big stink about it in 1999?

Anyway I see the Guardian did a follow-up that actually focusses on the fact it was the government using the shitty mechanism to stop the bill progressing through parliament.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jan/15/ministers-exploited-royal-veto-legislation
 
The Iraq war Bill that Tam Dalyell was proposing was merely a" Private Members Bill". Private Members Bills, if not specifically supported by the government of the day - (VERY RARE, but in which rare case it gets the required parliamentary time allocated to it by the Government of the day to allow it to go through its many stages), are at the joke " pure show -off and posturing" end of the Parliamentary process. Dalyell perfectly well knew there was no chance whatsoever of his Bill getting either sufficient parliamentary time allocated, or, equally importantly, the required majority of VOTES at any stage of the multi-stage Parliamentary process from his craven fellow Labour MP colleagues, or Lib Dems, to become an Act of Parliament. ie, law. The Government used the technical non award of the Queen's consent simply to put this no-hoper out of its misery, and avoid wasting everybody's time. (Don't suppose Her Maj even knew about it).The gainer ? Step forward Tam Dalyell, with a bit of cynical anti war posturing to please us Lefties, and presumeably his constituents. "Ooooooh you are just such a rebel Tam !" Meanwhile Tam and his craven Labourite quisling chums carry on as the usual collaborator Labour MP's do, having sworn their fealty to The Crown. Iraq gets the "Heavy collateral damage Imperialist Liberation treatment" - and Tam keep slurping up all those lovely expense claims ! (£18,000 for two bookcases bunged in by Tam the Rebel, just before he retired !)

As already said on another thread which seemed surprised that Prince Charles has been consulted on every possible Bill that might impinge on his Duchy of Cornwall interests, The British Constitution is very peculiar, not written anywhere as a single document, but instead constantly cobbled together via" historical custom and practice". So our current modern BOURGEOIS Parliamentary Democracy is still heavily influenced by our past non Bourgeois Democratic systems of rule, by various forms of Monarchy and Monarchy/aristocracy partnerships. This has left huge nominal reserve powers in the hands of the Monarch. In most periods this is purely nominal - as ceremonial and irrelevant as the State Opening of Parliament. However, in a real social crisis, for instance in which a radical Left government tried to legislate to nationalise key industries, REALLY tax the rich, introduce controls on capital flows,etc, it is really only the crude balance of class forces outside Parliament which would determine whether the UK's capitalist class would ignore "Democracy" and use all this age old "nominal" set of Monarch's prerogative powers to block radical legislation or even "legalise" a military coup. Remember in the UK we are all "Subjects" of the Monarch, NOT "Citizens", and the armed forces swear loyalty to the Queen, NOT, the "people" or even "Parliament". The Queen is the head honcho of the Ruling Class, NOT our big cuddly, politically neutral, pal !

The entire ramshackle UK Constitution is a potential beartrap to a future radical government trying to change the status quo for the better. The reason the Attlee government got away with its (radical but definately not revolutionery) post 1945 nationalisation programme and the high taxation of the rich, and the establishment of the welfare state was because of the potential threat of millions of demobbed soldiers and their relatives demanding radical change - and the ruling class not feeling strong enough to take em on. Today, the bastards think we're collectively a bunch of spineless wankers - so much so that even though they're robbing us blind through the "austerity programme" they still feel confident enough to slash the police force and cut their wages ! Any future radical UK Government would need to frighten the ruling capitalist class with its extra Parliamentary forces to have any chance of getting round the constitutional status quo-preserving beartrap that the Monarch's prerogative powers actually represent. We might need that Guillotine yet !
 
If an important part of the story was Blairs presidential sofa being able to morph into a throne when deemed appropriate to thwart a particular bill, rather than the personal views of the queen, I think the Guardian article should have drawn more attention to that implication.
Crap journalism is neither here nor there. It's unlikely that the royals would ever get away with abusing their constitutional powers, unless the government of the day agreed with their doing so. The government of the day often do agree with their doing so. Note how the statements from the royals stress that they've only ever used the power in accordance with ministerial advice. It is a convenient means of circumventing parliament. Not news, but good that it's finally getting some scrutiny.
 
Don't think this has been mentioned yet. Prince Charles has a "spy" - an employee on secondment - in the Cabinet Office.

:hmm:
 
oddly enough, i got a message today from the grad student whose request for papers opened up this can of worms. he should be publishing soon. which may well be interesting. at least i think it will be
 
The Guardian story does a (deliberately?) poor job of pointing out that despite these revelations, the symbolic nature of it may still very well be the case.

ie that nothing in the document excludes the idea that just like certain other functions and powers that the royals still have according to the rules, the decision made by the royal is not in practice their decision, because it would cause a crisis if they actually tried to make their own decision rather than doing what the government tells them.

Except things may be discussed behind closed doors prior to embarking on a bill to test the water to avert such a crisis. They have power.
 
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