Brockwell Park loses a chunk due to junction alterations at Herne Hill Junction

[gaijingirl]

I got a letter from FoBP yesterday and this info is also on their site for anyone who is interested. You might know that there has long been plans afoot to redesign the difficult Herne Hill junction. The latest plan involves cutting 1,000 sq metres off the Park in order to make a traffic island of some description... Anyway, understandably FoBP are totally opposed to this and this Saturday will be forming a (very civilised I should imagine ) human chain along the proposed new boundary - meet at 2pm at the Herne Hill gate if you'd like to help.

More info on their site here.

 

[T & P]

Out goes Pissheads Corner as well I guess...

 

[teuchter]

Hmm....

There's reference to it on the herne hill society website too:

http://www.hernehillsociety.org.uk/

along with a link to a proper drawing of the scheme.

I don't think it's quite as terrible as it seems on the FoBP website.
It seems that most of the corner being shaved off isn't becoming roadway but is used for what looks like a cycle track to avoid the junction.

I don't want to see bits of the park disappearing but in this case it might be justified by the benefits for pedestrians and cyclists in the area around the junction.

That bit of the park is mostly paved over at the moment anyway, isn't it?

That said I don't know much about it other than having had a look at that drawing.

 

[kyser_soze]

So has anyone actually got a picture of the actual scheme with a legend on it? The FoBP site gives you nothing except some guff about 16 double decker buses and the Herne Hill Society link to the official pdf is lacking any kind of guide to what the various shades of colour mean...but it does look like lots of extra cycle stuff and making it easier for peds...

personally I'd not object to another lane's worth of road cut out from the SE side of the park so the London-bound side is wide enough to stick a bus lane in from Brockwell park rise to link to the current one - the current arrangement with the bottleneck at the T-juntion with Rosendale is useless, and takes on average 10 mins for my bus in the morning to get through when it should take 2.

 

[Structaural]

So has anyone actually got a picture of the actual scheme with a legend on it? The FoBP site gives you nothing except some guff about 16 double decker buses and the Herne Hill Society link to the official pdf is lacking any kind of guide to what the various shades of colour mean...but it does look like lots of extra cycle stuff and making it easier for peds...

personally I'd not object to another lane's worth of road cut out from the SE side of the park so the London-bound side is wide enough to stick a bus lane in from Brockwell park rise to link to the current one - the current arrangement with the bottleneck at the T-juntion with Rosendale is useless, and takes on average 10 mins for my bus in the morning to get through when it should take 2.

click the link above your post and then click 'Herne Hill Junction' there's a PDF you can download/view.

 

[kyser_soze]

yeah, but the problem with that plan is it has NO LEGEND with which to tell me what that bloody great big lumpy thing with a tree is.

TBH I can't really stand to agree with FoBP - 100m2 is fuck all out of a park the size of Brockwell and the boozerbench can always be moved again...

 

[aurora green]

I think 1000 sq meters off the park is hell of a lot, and this plan really stinks.

Our park is precious.

Chopping off bits of it, in an attempt sustain the unsustainable is plain wrong.
It's a shame the congestion charge couldn't be extended South....
We will never get that bit of park back, our green space continues to shrink, and every bit is worth saving.

 

[Jonti]

A strip of land 100m x 10m represents an enormous value. It should only be taken if there are clear and firm plans to add an equivalent area to the park asap.

 

[gaijingirl]

See - as a cyclist and pedestrian, I feel quite well served by the fact there's a bloody great big park to cycle and walk around - I always cut through the park on my bike rather than take the road - so I don't feel especially like I want to lose a chunk to improve my cycling and walking prospects - iyswim!!

Obviously something needs to be done about that junction but there must be a better way?

Plus I honestly think giving more space to cars will just mean more space filled with cars and less green - basically what Aurora has expressed much more eloquently in her post.

How much park will we need to chop up over the years to make more room for cars?

 

[lang rabbie]

Have people really been talking about this for three years without agreement

2003 thread on Herne Hill junction

 

[gaijingirl]

Have people really been talking about this for three years without agreement

2003 thread on Herne Hill junction

Does that really surprise you??

 

[quimcunx]

iyswim!!

Sorry know this is off-topic but what is iyswim?

 

[gaijingirl]

Sorry know this is off-topic but what is iyswim?

If you see what I mean

 

[quimcunx]

Thank you!

 

[aurora green]

Thanks so much gaijingirl for letting us know about this.

My young son and I went to the hand holding thing this afternoon. It was very civilised indeed.
A strong show of support against this unacceptable proposal.

Being in the park, just intensified the feeling that taking any bit of it away to relieve traffic is completely misguided.

 

[Dan U]

See - as a cyclist and pedestrian, I feel quite well served by the fact there's a bloody great big park to cycle and walk around - I always cut through the park on my bike rather than take the road - so I don't feel especially like I want to lose a chunk to improve my cycling and walking prospects - iyswim!!

Obviously something needs to be done about that junction but there must be a better way?

Plus I honestly think giving more space to cars will just mean more space filled with cars and less green - basically what Aurora has expressed much more eloquently in her post.

How much park will we need to chop up over the years to make more room for cars?

it's a tough one. Pedestrianising the area in front of the Station is a nice idea though. Opportunity cost i guess

 

[pugwash]

it's a tough one. Pedestrianising the area in front of the Station is a nice idea though. Opportunity cost i guess

Yes that would be lovely!! There's definitely a lot to be done in that area - I just don't want to see us lose a bit of the park to make more way for cars!

 

[teuchter]

Yes that would be lovely!! There's definitely a lot to be done in that area - I just don't want to see us lose a bit of the park to make more way for cars!

It depends whether the improvements are to make way for more cars, or to make the buses move more easily and make that junction safer to negotiate for pedestrians/cyclists.

If it's the former I can see the objection - if it's the latter then I'm not bothered about losing a very small bit of the park. It's not exactly the nicest bit of Brockwell park anyway.

 

[gaijingirl]

But I think you could make the junction easier to negotiate for peds/cyclists and easier for buses (and it's really not that bad for buses - nothing like trying to get up Brixton Road for example) without chopping up the park. Other options have been put forward that don't involve removing such a large portion. FoBP even conceded that a small amount could be removed - but this is rather a large chunk!

I don't think it's an either (lose bits of the park) or (have an unsafe junction for pedestrians/cyclists + no room for buses) situation. Once cars get introduced to the equation it is, of course, more complicated then that!! Despite this I still think a compromise could be reached.

 

[sir.clip]

This is a right bugger this corner.. I thought for years that it would be a good thing to extend/widen the left turn, so as to allow for easy congestion flow..
As it is now the buses & cars just sit pumping out gas, If the corner of park land was removed & used for solving traffic congestion, I think its justifiable..
As long as it in corperates a cycle lane & also has a good crossing point for pedestrians as it does now..

I dont like the drunks & druggies who congregate in the corner that is in question & the old toilets are not getting used for anything at present.. The corner could in reality be used for easing traffic congestion & a safe bus terminous & bicycle rack area... Its a shame green space is lost to traffic congestion.. But thats the sad reality of London Life.. I'd rather see flowing traffic, Than have the traffic jams & idle use of fuel thats is present every day along Norwood road..

I reckon they should cut the corner off but reclaim it from the car park next to the Lido..

Then bus services to the front of the Lido would be a little more frequent due to faster flowing traffic along norwood road & people traveling to the park or lido have less reason to drive..

Also the area of car park next to the Lido could be used for a really nice rockery or alpine garden..

 

[kyser_soze]

Thanks so much gaijingirl for letting us know about this.

My young son and I went to the hand holding thing this afternoon. It was very civilised indeed.
A strong show of support against this unacceptable proposal.

Being in the park, just intensified the feeling that taking any bit of it away to relieve traffic is completely misguided.

It's not just to relieve traffic tho is it? The whole idea is to make that whole corner of Herne Hill a safer and less intimidating place to be - having had a better look at the plans they could probably shave maybe 20sqm off what's proposed, but it's far from simply a system to relieve traffic.

Besides, a 3x33m chunk of what is essentially unused park at the moment isn't really going to be noticed.

 

[gaijingirl]

I agree that the left turn from Norwood Road is a bugger - I lost a pannier full of expensive things when I came off my bike there trying to squeeze through - but my own responsibility really. I should have just cut through the park earlier on.

But this morning I was running around the park and as I ran across that (essentially unused????) corner I was looking at all the beautiful flowers planted there which always really cheer me up when they first appear in spring. Then I was thinking about how at Christmas time if I ever come into Herne Hill by train the blue lights on the giant tree there always make me feel really happy to be coming home. Then I thought about my neighbour who drinks in the drinkers' corner when he's not working (which is completely hidden now so as not to offend local sensibilities) and felt bad for him. He's a nice guy, doesn't do anyone any harm - just likes a drink outside with his mates it seems. As much as it annoyed me to have to squeeze through that junction I don't want to lose all those other benefits. I'd certainly notice the loss of this part of park which I and my neighbours use on an almost daily basis.

Definitely something should be done with the toilet block though.

As I said before - there have been other proposals that involve taking much less of the park - or none at all.

 

[kyser_soze]

But in fairness from the look of the plans that tree will still be there, and flowers are...well flowers, and by their very nature can be grown easily anywhere.

There probably is a compromise between the existing plan and doing nothing - i'd be interested to see where the records for previous proposals are and why they weren't acted on...

 

[gaijingirl]

There probably is a compromise between the existing plan and doing nothing - i'd be interested to see where the records for previous proposals are and why they weren't acted on...

Yes - good point!

 

[aurora green]

It's not just to relieve traffic tho is it?

There is absolutely no way that slicing a bit off our park would be being proposed if wasn't to relieve traffic...

 

[aurora green]

But this morning I was running around the park and as I ran across that (essentially unused????) corner I was looking at all the beautiful flowers planted there which always really cheer me up when they first appear in spring. Then I was thinking about how at Christmas time if I ever come into Herne Hill by train the blue lights on the giant tree there always make me feel really happy to be coming home. Then I thought about my neighbour who drinks in the drinkers' corner when he's not working (which is completely hidden now so as not to offend local sensibilities) and felt bad for him. He's a nice guy, doesn't do anyone any harm - just likes a drink outside with his mates it seems. As much as it annoyed me to have to squeeze through that junction I don't want to lose all those other benefits. I'd certainly notice the loss of this part of park which I and my neighbours use on an almost daily basis.

Top post!

 

[kyser_soze]

There is absolutely no way that slicing a bit off our park would be being proposed if wasn't to relieve traffic...

You do know that 'traffic' applies to people & bikes as well as cars, buses etc don't you?

 

[aurora green]

You do know that 'traffic' applies to people & bikes as well as cars, buses etc don't you?

....


Bikes and people wouldn't have a problem with that junction, if a way could be found to reduce the number of cars and lorrys passing through.

 

[gaijingirl]

I am a cyclist, pedestrian and bus user.

With regards to that junction I've never really had any problems with the buses there and compared to say Brixton Road/Walworth Road it's positively flowing.

As for cycling/walking - I'd far rather walk/cycle inside the current boundary of the park than have a bit lopped off it just so I can do the exactly the same journey outside the park!

 

[sir.clip]

If they cut off the corner to allow for easing of the congestion along Norwood road, it would be a far more sensible thing to use the car park next to the lido in the park as a flower bed & drinkers retreat..

I have been walking along the street On the very corner, outside of the park. Only to have had a near miss from a car mounting the pavement in order to squeeze around the corner..
I belive that if they expanded the road it would be safer for pedestrians & ease the back up of traffic along norwood road..

I really belive that the hobos of the park however lovely & charming they are will find anoher place to settle with in the walls of brockwell park..
And again i say that the park would benefit from re-using the car park next to the lido for a far better park related use, IE flower bed or greenspace..
than just a dusty car park.