britains 4.8 trillion pound debt

[terrythomas]

Did anyone see this? Surprised there's not been a post about it. The facts were utterly terrifying. However it was extremely one sided in its presentation apart from dismal performances from darling and the leader of the tuc. I would like to hear the left wing side to the argument, can anyone fill me in?

 

[Lakina]

Yeah, I watched for about 5 minutes and then turned off and read a book. It was so patronising.

Seemed to assume the average viewer is brain dead. I may not be an economist, but I don't need tax explained to me in comedy sketch format.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

This is the second time in recent weeks that Channel 4 has come out with material that supports the neo-liberal economics that is the current fashion. I didn't see the programme only the trailers which is why I didn't watch the programme knowing what was to come.

There really should be no need to give a 'left wing side'. Anyone who is able to think for themselves from even a politically middle point of view knows that the talk of a 'British debt' is a lie to enable the government to carry out cuts from a purely ideological viewpoint.

It is sad to see Channel 4 giving a platform to this nonsense. I wonder if they have another programme to balance it out. The excuse, if they haven't got such a programme might be that it is not political but purely economics. Economic policy however is politics and it is the very centre of politics under the current system.

 

[ChrisFilter]

Tory propaganda. Utter wank.

 

[rover07]

Did the programme also deal with Britains assets?

 

[terrythomas]

No, interesting point. What are the governments assets?

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Did the programme also deal with Britains assets?

I doubt it, they would have difficulty locating Britain's assets, hidden as they are in various foreign tax refuges. The tangible ones that belonged to the state itself were sold off on the cheap by Thatcher and those that remain have been identified by Cameron to do the same with. There should then be enough petty cash in the slush fund to buy a few tax cuts for his business friends before the general election.

 

[terrythomas]

It also had a few vox pops from mps who clearly didn't know the difference between the debt and the deficit, alarming!

 

[stethoscope]

Surprised there's not been a post about it.

That's because the contents of which are discussed heavily elsewhere on this forum every day.

The facts were utterly terrifying.

The 'facts' as delivered by a producer/director that has form for his right-leaning 'libertarian' views - with a small public sector and faith in privatised market economy delivering everything.

I would like to hear the left wing side to the argument, can anyone fill me in?

Read the forum, instead of being spoon fed.

 

[BigTom]

fuck me, I'm half an hour into this and I don't know if I can go on. how did this utter wank ever get on tv? as chrisfilter said, tory propoganda.
I can't possibly take the program apart line by line, I don't have the time or energy.
If there are particular things you want refuted, please can you sign point them because pretty well everything in that program is either out and out bullshit, missing the point completely, or twisting things so badly it might as well be called lying.

Overall, have a look at what things were like around the start of the 20th century, and ask yourself, is the economical well-being of the nation better now or then? why do you think that is the case?
If what this program wants happens, there would be no (or very, very little) state to think of, and that's where we'd be back.

The total failure to point out the effect thatcher's policies in the 80s had on the manufacturing industry, and the incapability of the documentary maker to link those things together should tell you all you need to know about whether he is worth listening to.

Won't someone think of the children!!!1!!!111111

e2a: wtf? do they not think that perhaps the world war, and the subsequent breakup of the british empire had maybe, maybe, just something to do with problems in the british manufacturing industry at the time? oh no, it's all down to government debt..

 

[terrythomas]

I will read it, there's so much to understand, its a fascinating subject.

So noone actually saw it then?

 

[terrythomas]

I will read it, there's so much to understand, its a fascinating subject.

So noone actually saw it then?

 

[rover07]

Why have a programme on debt but not assets? Thats like a programme about mortgages...without mentioning the house!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ah, that explains why certain old Scottish fools have been wandering around here recently pretending to understand economics.

Not seen it, no interest in seeing it. But if it lumps public sector pension liability onto the national debt, which it must be doing, it is being dishonest and alarmist. Pensions are an ongoing commitment, quite different from the debt created by bonds. I don't know how many children there are in the UK, but there is also an ongoing commitment to pay their parents child benefit. The two are essentially no different in nature.

There's nothing terrifying about it. All it says is that the govt is committed to paying money out to people over the coming decades. Well good!

 

[BigTom]

I'm watching it as we type. I though I might be able to give you a precis of a general argument about it, but there is so much wrong with the program that I can't do that. The best thing you can do to understand is to look at what living conditions were like for people around the start of the 20th century, because that'll tell you what it's like to live in capitalism with a small state.

I thought there might be a few bits were I could say well this was wrong and that was wrong so it undermines the argument being made but I really can't, there is too much wrong in this program.

It's also horrendously, horribly emotionally cast in its language - not just the think of the kids bit, but also the way it talks about the "productive economy" in a way that thinks it is somehow separate from the public sector. I wouldn't be surprised if he stops saying taxation and starts say the money the government steals from us.

e2a: as lbj made clear below where I said "it" in the previous paragraph after productive economy, I should have said private sector for clarity

 

[butchersapron]

Durkin has been consistently censured for his docs factual content.

 

[terrythomas]

Double post, phone issues, must get a computer. Interesting post big tom.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ah, the old public/private sector ruse. There is only one sector, just as there is only one kind of money. Anyone trying to tell you different is attempting to pull a fast one.

 

[terrythomas]

I will read it, there's so much to understand, its a fascinating subject.

So noone actually saw it then?

 

[BigTom]

did durkin do the great global warming swindle?

lbj, don't watch it, your economics is so much better than mine and I'm just getting wound up by it. It's awful, truly gobsmackingly awful. He hasn't got round to explaining the makeup of the debt yet but yes it includes public sector pensions, he mentioned that.
He's just complaining about the number of public sector workers, saying that only a small number of public sector workers are frontline, mentioning police officers and how they complain about doing paperwork all the time - well maybe that's because there aren't enough admin workers - the workers you are looking to cut! right now he's going through people with apparently useless job titles, without actually thinking about what these people might do.. it's the old, lets get rid of anyone with "outreach" in their job title.

e2a: triple post there terry ?

 

[Stoat Boy]

I watched it and although I was not a fan of the style of the documentary I throughly agreed with its main points although to be fair they were already preaching to the converted in my case.

Personally I think income/profit tax should be no more than 10% and that should be the ONLY tax payable it but I am willing to accept that the programe makers with their claims about 15-20% had to show some sort of left wing bias just to get it on the television.

 

[rover07]

1 Trillion of the debt is liability in the nationalised banks. This is mortgage loans to homeowners. The state with its socialist planning system had to step in to prevent the collapse of the banking system, which is poorly organised and badly run. Were the 1 Trillion pounds worth of housing mentioned at all?

 

[BigTom]

lies about the nhs btw, the nhs is one of the best healthcare systems in the world in terms of patient outcomes. the us, which is the least socialised system in the world, pays twice as much per capita for their healthcare and get a worse service for it. The german system is socialised btw.

I have to stop doing this, there will be about 100 posts from me in the next half hour, I'll probably double my post count!

 

[radio_atomica]

I watched it and although I was not a fan of the style of the documentary I throughly agreed with its main points although to be fair they were already preaching to the converted in my case.

Personally I think income/profit tax should be no more than 10% and that should be the ONLY tax payable it but I am willing to accept that the programe makers with their claims about 15-20% had to show some sort of left wing bias just to get it on the television.

Sorry but that just reads like something upchuck would post. If you want people to take you seriously could you come up with some kind of actual argument?

 

[rover07]

Another 1.3 trillion is state pensions, a guarantee of a minimum income to people in their old-age. In other words the government sets aside money from those who are working for when they are old. Shocking eh?

 

[rover07]

1.2 trillion is public sector pensions. But what has the public sector ever done for us? (Apart from education obviously)

 

[ovaltina]

He's got a douche attachment in his bathroom

 

[rover07]

800 billion is national debt. Where has this money gone eh? we all live in shacks, there are no roads, railways, schools, sewerage, hospitals, nurses, police, doctors, teachers, accountants, plumbers, electricians, carpenters, lawyers...

 

[stethoscope]

did durkin do the great global warming swindle?

Yep.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

I watched it and although I was not a fan of the style of the documentary I throughly agreed with its main points although to be fair they were already preaching to the converted in my case.

Personally I think income/profit tax should be no more than 10% and that should be the ONLY tax payable it but I am willing to accept that the programe makers with their claims about 15-20% had to show some sort of left wing bias just to get it on the television.