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Anarchism. being somehow privileged or more advanced than others>

TremulousTetra

prismatic universe
I just wondered what people think about some of the ideas raised in this quote.

I would imagine that the vast majority of people would see somebody like Chomsky as more advanced in the appreciation of social change, than some member of the Ku Klux Klan. Same goes for the likes of violent Panda compared to a BNP member.

that's just one point, there are several other issues of interest i think.
http://www.eco-action.org/dod/no9/activism.htm
Experts

By 'an activist mentality' what I mean is that people think of themselves primarily as activists and as belonging to some wider community of activists. The activist identifies with what they do and thinks of it as their role in life, like a job or career. In the same way some people will identify with their job as a doctor or a teacher, and instead of it being something they just happen to be doing, it becomes an essential part of their self-image.
The activist is a specialist or an expert in social change. To think of yourself as being an activist means to think of yourself as being somehow privileged or more advanced than others in your appreciation of the need for social change, in the knowledge of how to achieve it and as leading or being in the forefront of the practical struggle to create this change.
Activism, like all expert roles, has its basis in the division of labour - it is a specialised separate task. The division of labour is the foundation of class society, the fundamental division being that between mental and manual labour. The division of labour operates, for example, in medicine or education - instead of healing and bringing up kids being common knowledge and tasks that everyone has a hand in, this knowledge becomes the specialised property of doctors and teachers - experts that we must rely on to do these things for us. Experts jealously guard and mystify the skills they have. This keeps people separated and disempowered and reinforces hierarchical class society.
A division of labour implies that one person takes on a role on behalf of many others who relinquish this responsibility. A separation of tasks means that other people will grow your food and make your clothes and supply your electricity while you get on with achieving social change. The activist, being an expert in social change, assumes that other people aren't doing anything to change their lives and so feels a duty or a responsibility to do it on their behalf. Activists think they are compensating for the lack of activity by others. Defining ourselves as activists means definingour actions as the ones which will bring about social change, thus disregarding the activity of thousands upon thousands of other non-activists. Activism is based on this misconception that it is only activists who do social change - whereas of course class struggle is happening all the time.
 
Have you read it or just the excerpt above? What do you think that it's arguing?
Ye, read it all. Thought it was the only decent contribution to the other thread by an anarchist.

The article as a whole is critique of what I was trying to criticise in the other thread, activism or substitutionism?" The idea that you can substitute yourself for the working-class. "Defining ourselves as activists means definingour actions as the ones which will bring about social change, thus disregarding the activity of thousands upon thousands of other non-activists. Activism is based on this misconception that it is only activists who do social change - whereas of course class struggle is happening all the time."



so I agree with the article as a whole, it is just some of the peculiar ideas upon which the general article is based upon, that I find interesting. For example "The division of labour operates, for example, in medicine or education - instead of healing and bringing up kids being common knowledge and tasks that everyone has a hand in, this knowledge becomes the specialised property of doctors and teachers - experts that we must rely on to do these things for us. Experts jealously guard and mystify the skills they have. This keeps people separated and disempowered and reinforces hierarchical class society."

I'm very familiar with this argument from the disability movement. In the disability movement they contrast the social model of disability, with the medical model of disability, exposing that the medical model of disability certainly does what the anarchist described here, making disabled people something that is managed by the medical experts, rather than someone who manages their own disability with the assistance of others. the doctors to some extent do try to retain the specialised knowledge, making them someone we rely upon, keeping us separated and disempowered. This is why the disability movement activists prefer the term personal assistant, to carer, because we are not being cared for, we are caring for ourselves with the assistance of others. BUT this goes too far; " The division of labour is the foundation of class society, the fundamental division being that between mental and manual labour. ETC"

Firstly, a division of Labour occurred in hunter gatherer societies, classless societies. For me, seeing the division of Labour as fundamental to class society and the working classes oppression, is wrong. The division of labour occurred in primitive classless societies, and COULD occur if there is any future more advanced classless societies. The fact that the division of Labour is distorted in class societies, by the people's alienation from the division of Labour, does not make the division of Labour itself a fundamental feature of class society. The division of labour is neither malignant nor benign. It is just as useful to the classless society, as much as the class society. It is just as useful to the progressive movements, as it is to the reactionary movements. It's just like the argument that the gun is evil, when in fact it is an inanimate object whose nature is defined by its use by human beings, not the other way around. And so it is how the division of Labour is applied, that is fundamental to its nature as progressive or reactionary.

what's more, "A division of labour implies that one person takes on a role on behalf of many others who relinquish this responsibility. A separation of tasks means that other people will grow your food and make your clothes and supply your electricity while you get on with achieving social change. The activist, being an expert in social change, assumes that other people aren't doing anything to change their lives and so feels a duty or a responsibility to do it on their behalf. Activists think they are compensating for the lack of activity by others. Defining ourselves as activists means definingour actions as the ones which will bring about social change, thus disregarding the activity of thousands upon thousands of other non-activists. Activism is based on this misconception that it is only activists who do social change - whereas of course class struggle is happening all the time. "

now the activist, the person who substitutes themselves for the class, may make this mistake substitutionism, but this does not negate the possibility that Chomsky is "more advanced than others in your appreciation of the need for social change, in the knowledge of how to achieve it and as leading or being in the forefront of the practical struggle to create this change." than the working-class member of the BNP. This also does not negate the possibility that a socialist is 'more advanced than others in your appreciation of the need for social change, in the knowledge of how to achieve it and as leading or being in the forefront of the practical struggle to create this change." than a member of the BNP, BUT she is also aware that the emancipation of the working class, has to be the act of the working class. Vanguardism.

Anarchists SEEM to disagree with this. They SEEM to argue that we are all equally "" in appreciation of the need for social change, in the knowledge of how to achieve it and as leading or being in the forefront of the practical struggle to create this change."if this is true, it seems illogical to me, and I would appreciate an explanation.
 
RMP3

Firstly your opening post speaks of Anarchism, but the article you quote refers specifically to 'activism'. While it may be written by an anarchist that doesn't mean that all activists are anarchists.

If you are becoming interested in ideas about specialisms producing privileged elites then go and read some Ivan Illich of "De-schooling Society" fame.
 
RMP3

Firstly your opening post speaks of Anarchism, but the article you quote refers specifically to 'activism'. While it may be written by an anarchist that doesn't mean that all activists are anarchists.

If you are becoming interested in ideas about specialisms producing privileged elites then go and read some Ivan Illich of "De-schooling Society" fame.
what happened was, I tried to critique activism/substitutionism, and an anarchist said hey look anarchists criticise activism to look at this article.

On this thread, it is difficult to be clear when you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Some of the things that are said by anarchists, just don't make any sense at all to me. I'm quite prepared to accept that that is my fault. It is part of me being stupid, part of me being politically indoctrinated, whatever. But it is the fact that I don't understand them, that makes them all the more intriguing.

when I talk to socialists whatever, though we may never agree, they don't usually say something that is downright peculiar. Anarchists on the other hand seem to have a completely different way of looking at the world, to the vast majority of people I come across. Again, this makes them very intriguing in my opinion.


So I'm not really interested in specialisms producing privileged elites. What I am interested in is this notion that most of the anarchists I've come across on here SEEM to share, that we are all equally "" in appreciation of the need for social change, in the knowledge of how to achieve it and as leading or being in the forefront of the practical struggle to create this change."if this is true, it seems illogical to me, and I would appreciate an explanation. it's this antithetical idea to vanguardism, which I am most interested in.

Lastly. Prefer people to put it in their own words, rather than refer to some reading.
 
I just wondered what people think about some of the ideas raised in this quote.

I would imagine that the vast majority of people would see somebody like Chomsky as more advanced in the appreciation of social change, than some member of the Ku Klux Klan. Same goes for the likes of violent Panda compared to a BNP member.

that's just one point, there are several other issues of interest i think.
You're conflating the "activist identity" with anarchists.
 
What RMP3 actually did in the other thread was not 'critique activism/substitutionism'; it was an unfounded and ill-conceived swipe at anarchism. Obviously, he showed himself to be ill-informed, prejudiced and dishonest.

And, in the meantime, the usual suspects repeated the usual nonsense.
 
You're conflating the "activist identity" with anarchists.
Not this time I'm not.I tried to say the absolute minimum. When that didn't work, I try to say a little bit more. It seems no matter what you say, no one is prepared to discuss the issue. Have raised it many times, same response.

I would imagine that the vast majority of people would see somebody like Chomsky as more advanced in the appreciation of social change, than some member of the Ku Klux Klan. Same goes for the likes of violent Panda compared to a BNP member.

so why don't virtually all the anarchists I've come across agree with the vast majority on this point? I'm not saying they should, I just want to hear an anarchist explanation.
 
What RMP3 actually did in the other thread was not 'critique activism/substitutionism'; it was an unfounded and ill-conceived swipe at anarchism. Obviously, he showed himself to be ill-informed, prejudiced and dishonest.

And, in the meantime, the usual suspects repeated the usual nonsense.
everybody makes mistakes. The past is the past. Tried to couch this thread in ways that won't offend, still the same response. if you can't answer the question, why don't you just say so?
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
everybody makes mistakes. The past is the past. Tried to couch this thread in ways that won't offend, still the same response. if you can't answer the question, why don't you just say so?

Remind me. What was the question?
 
Remind me. What was the question?
lol, too hard for you? Well try this one;
"instead of healing and bringing up kids being common knowledge and tasks that everyone has a hand in, this knowledge becomes the specialised property of doctors and teacher"

Seriously? :D So let me get this right, in anarchist society everybody would have a hand in healing, there wouldn't be any experts, no brain surgeons? Is that where that well-known anarchist phrase comes from, workers of the world unite, all you have to lose is your brains?

As I said, I did honestly like the article. Makes some interesting points, and makes you think about your own activity. But some of the points here and there, they are just peculiar.
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
lol, too hard for you? Well try this one;
"instead of healing and bringing up kids being common knowledge and tasks that everyone has a hand in, this knowledge becomes the specialised property of doctors and teacher"

Seriously? :D So let me get this right, in anarchist society everybody would have a hand in healing, there wouldn't be any experts, no brain surgeons? Is that where that well-known anarchist phrase comes from, workers of the world unite, all you have to lose is your brains?

As I said, I did honestly like the article. Makes some interesting points, and makes you think about your own activity. But some of the points here and there, they are just peculiar.

Are you asking whether anarchists believe that brain surgery should be carried out by amateurs? If so, then, whilst I can't speak for ask anarchists, I would reply: of course not, you tit.

Are you stupid, or being deliberately obtuse, to score cheap points?
 
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