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A citizen's wage

ymu

Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
Have we done this as a thread before? Never mind. Inspired by derf's thread, here is its mirror image.

I propose a citizen's wage, to be set at a level approximating the income of someone on social security today assuming that they were claiming JSA and housing benefit. Let's say £10k/year. I propose a citizen's wage of £5k/year for under 16's to be paid to a parent with custody, rising after the age of 16 and reaching the full amount at 21, with half being paid to the parent and half to the child until the child has left home or reaches 21.

Pros:

- we would save a fortune on the bureaucratic infrastructure associated with social security; everything could be dealt with through the tax system

- for most the existence would be too impoverished to prefer not working. Taxation would be high, to pay for the citizen's wage (an additional 35% tax replacing NI), but the citizen's wage would not be lost when work started. Assuming the rest of the tax structure stayed broadly similar to today, someone on an average wage of £20k would see ~£9k of it, on top of their £10k CW, thus having a net income of £19k. Someone on £100k would see ~£43k of it on top of their CW, thus having a net income of £53k.

- we would benefit massively from those who could comfortably live on the CW without working. Instead of signing on as a full-time job they would be free to pursue their art, music, writing; they can care for family-members, provide child-minding, without losing their financial independence.

- the voluntary sector would benefit massively from the freedom of people to volunteer full-time, and from the freedom of workers to take some paid time out to volunteer their skills.

- people would have the financial freedom to take jobs they cared about instead of those that would pay the best, which will tend to increase wages for those jobs which society values most highly.

- retraining would be easier, benefiting both the workers who are retraining and the rest of society that benefits from the new skills.

- wages would rise and income inequality would fall, because there is less power over a worker who does not fear losing his job. The most equal societies in the world also have the lowest crime, the best educational attainments, the highest purchasing power per capita. Our quality of life would improve immensely.

Cons:

The bankers would leave the country.*



*consequence may be filed under wrong heading
 
Yeah this one has been hashed out a few times. It'd effectively work as a tax cut for the wealthy and be a socially improving thin for the less wealthy. Mothers could survive comfortably on a part time job AND be there for the children. Young people from poorer backgrounds could afford to attend education/training as well as pay thier bills. It's win/win.

Someone will be along shortly to point out that we cannot afford it. This arguement will then be demolished by facts and figures. Right wingers and blowhards will huff about an honest days work and how they pulled up thier socks etc.

so it goes
 
I would tweak your proposals slightly - have it set at 12k a year per adult, have it rise to the full amount at 16 for those who stay in education (if backed up by an increase in the provision of vocational and flexible options) at the age of 18 otherwise, and add London weighting.

Otherwise yeah a GMI is a very good thing, it would also be a massive benefit to capitalism and entirely workable. It would need to be backed up by good union/minimum wage laws to prevent employers simply using it to bring in low wages - but yeah it would work.

Unfortunately it seems so shockingly radical that I'm not sure what sort of powerful and high profile movement would be needed to bring it in.
 
Something like a citizen's wage is in the Green Party manifesto, apparently. I haven't read the details.

I'd be happy with the £12k level. Realistically, as you say, it would need to have some regional variation - although another benefit of the CW would be a tendency to reduce differences in living costs between areas.
 
I agree with the concept and would support it, but some of that stuff listed as 'pro' is crazily utopian stuff about how such a thing would alter people's behaviour!

Weltweit - don't forget, by replacing all administered benefits with one single payment, the savings in admin costs alone would amount to billions.
 
Pros:

- we would save a fortune on the bureaucratic infrastructure associated with social security; everything could be dealt with through the tax system

- for most the existence would be too impoverished to prefer not working. Taxation would be high, to pay for the citizen's wage (an additional 35% tax replacing NI), but the citizen's wage would not be lost when work started. Assuming the rest of the tax structure stayed broadly similar to today, someone on an average wage of £20k would see ~£9k of it, on top of their £10k CW, thus having a net income of £19k. Someone on £100k would see ~£43k of it on top of their CW, thus having a net income of £53k.
Noting the first point, I've given an approximate idea, based on the current national mean wage of around £30k, and suggesting a 35% tax to pay for the CW. I need kabbes to turn up and fiddle with the numbers, because the CW would replace the state pension and all current benefits, so exactly how much additional tax would be needed is tough to guesstimate. I've basically assumed that the extra tax paid for by workers covers the CW paid to workers and that the existing tax structure pays for the CW of those currently reliant on benefits, and chucked in a bit extra to be safe.

I need kabbes to do these calcs properly too, but here are my guesstimates based on those assumptions.

Those on below the average income would pay a very low marginal rate of tax. Someone on 20k would pay ~55% tax on what they earn, but compared to today they'd effectively be paying £1k tax for a net income of £19k.

90% of us are on less than £40k. Someone on £40k would keep about £16k of it for a total net income of £26k, effectively paying £14k tax.

These numbers compare very favourably to today for the vast majority, especially given all the other benefits of running things this way.
 
yes

What I was looking for was, CW proposal will cost XYZ billion and revenues from new taxation will bring in ABC billion.
I've done that in terms of national average incomes and cost of the CW. It's the same information but presented per capita.
 
yes

What I was looking for was, CW proposal will cost XYZ billion and revenues from new taxation will bring in ABC billion.

I don't think we need to work out the exact cost benefit ratio on a proposal thread that would be for any political organisation that decided to adopt it as policy to fully research the exact details - but as Keyser said the savings in admin costs alone would clearly be massive.

Some savings would clearly take time to filter through as well and do rely on us making some ideological assumptions for instance I would argue that there would be a fall in the crime rate - and there is a large body of evidence that points towards the economic factor in crime - but working out exact figures for the purposes of a online discussion thread is a bit of a tall order.
 
Someone entering a minimum wage job on £10k would pay 4.5K tax for a net income of £15.5k; they're better off by 55p in every pound they earn. Those entering minimum wage work today pay a 95% marginal rate of tax, being only 5p better off for every pound they earn.

I hope I haven't fucked up these figures. kabbes, where are you?
 
Have we done this as a thread before? Never mind. Inspired by derf's thread, here is its mirror image.

I propose a citizen's wage, to be set at a level approximating the income of someone on social security today assuming that they were claiming JSA and housing benefit. Let's say £10k/year. I propose a citizen's wage of £5k/year for under 16's to be paid to a parent with custody, rising after the age of 16 and reaching the full amount at 21, with half being paid to the parent and half to the child until the child has left home or reaches 21.

Pros:

- we would save a fortune on the bureaucratic infrastructure associated with social security; everything could be dealt with through the tax system

- for most the existence would be too impoverished to prefer not working. Taxation would be high, to pay for the citizen's wage (an additional 35% tax replacing NI), but the citizen's wage would not be lost when work started. Assuming the rest of the tax structure stayed broadly similar to today, someone on an average wage of £20k would see ~£9k of it, on top of their £10k CW, thus having a net income of £19k. Someone on £100k would see ~£43k of it on top of their CW, thus having a net income of £53k.

- we would benefit massively from those who could comfortably live on the CW without working. Instead of signing on as a full-time job they would be free to pursue their art, music, writing; they can care for family-members, provide child-minding, without losing their financial independence.

- the voluntary sector would benefit massively from the freedom of people to volunteer full-time, and from the freedom of workers to take some paid time out to volunteer their skills.

- people would have the financial freedom to take jobs they cared about instead of those that would pay the best, which will tend to increase wages for those jobs which society values most highly.

- retraining would be easier, benefiting both the workers who are retraining and the rest of society that benefits from the new skills.

- wages would rise and income inequality would fall, because there is less power over a worker who does not fear losing his job. The most equal societies in the world also have the lowest crime, the best educational attainments, the highest purchasing power per capita. Our quality of life would improve immensely.

Cons:

The bankers would leave the country.*



*consequence may be filed under wrong heading

a very good idea .
 
Question - how to sell it?

It needs to be sold in a single line. 'Pay More Tax, Get More Back' or something like that, as a general message, then tailored to specific income bands, still in a single line.

You'd also need to place it as a 'The govt doesn't touch this, it goes into the IR, and into you pocket' - there are a lot of geuinuinely sellable points about this that are hard to refute as USPs.

Just don't go around saying that it will make everyone more inclined to work, because it won't.
 
Question - how to sell it?

It needs to be sold in a single line. 'Pay More Tax, Get More Back' or something like that, as a general message, then tailored to specific income bands, still in a single line.

You'd also need to place it as a 'The govt doesn't touch this, it goes into the IR, and into you pocket' - there are a lot of geuinuinely sellable points about this that are hard to refute as USPs.

Just don't go around saying that it will make everyone more inclined to work, because it won't.

You are right - the only way to sell it imo is using the language of efficiency and fairness to you

But even then, this idea has been kicking around for a while and it's not afaik been taken on anywhere...
 
The other thing that would need to underpin it would be the theme 'This will benefit 90%+ (whatever the number is) of people in this coutry' which would instantly neutralise frothy r/wing and home counties m/c backlash - point out that they'll benefit too and they'll come running.
 
Just don't go around saying that it will make everyone more inclined to work, because it won't.
I haven't said that at all. I've just pointed out that there would still be a considerable financial incentive to work and those who would rather not won't be taking jobs from those who want to. I think we would see a fall in overall levels of paid work but a rise in productivity, particularly in the arts and voluntary sectors.
 
- we would benefit massively from those who could comfortably live on the CW without working. Instead of signing on as a full-time job they would be free to pursue their beer, music, writing graffiti ; they can care for family-members who are always pissed, provide child-minding for the kids out of it on drugs, without losing their financial independence.

*consequence may be filed under wrong heading

Fixed the post for you. :)
 
The other thing that would need to underpin it would be the theme 'This will benefit 90%+ (whatever the number is) of people in this coutry' which would instantly neutralise frothy r/wing and home counties m/c backlash - point out that they'll benefit too and they'll come running.
Yep. The whole discourse on taxes and benefits is dominated by voices who have no concept of what it's like to have an ordinary-sized income. Higher progressive taxes and solid social security benefit nearly all of us in multiple ways, but that point of view is never expressed in the lobbies. How odd.
 
DotCom and I have both argued at length for this in the past.

The biggest problem it presents is the potential for division between citizens who are entitled to it and immigrants who are not.

To me, this is the only valid con.
 
You are right - the only way to sell it imo is using the language of efficiency and fairness to you

But even then, this idea has been kicking around for a while and it's not afaik been taken on anywhere...
I'm not shilling for the GReens, but they have taken it up, I believe.

Our Aims

The Green Party would address this problem by introducing a Citizen’s Income.This is an unconditional payment made to each individual as a right ofcitizenship – like a tax credit paid to everyone whether they're working or not.

The Green Party would introduce a Citizen’s Income that would:

1. Guarantee that everyone’s basic needs are covered by a non means-tested weekly payment, as of right.
2. Replace benefits such as Job Seeker’s Allowance, as well as replacing personal tax-free allowances with a payment which is worth much more.
3. Ensure that anyone who takes paid work will be better off for doing so.
4. Make working part-time an option for many people who would prefer it, but who are currently discouraged from it.
5. Put an end to demeaning benefits procedures.
6. Act as a safety-net to those considering self-employment, so that they have less to fear if their business isn’t successful.

http://younggreens.greenparty.org.uk/AboutUs/Policy/CitizensIncome
 
Would result in lots of public sector job losses (getting rid of many of the people who are administering the current system) ?

Sounds like a good idea to me though.
 
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