No place for Israel in Middle East, says Iran’s Ahmadinejad
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dylans
overlord of all acorns
No. It is also a cultural identity . However people carry many identites within themselves. Religious, cultural, national, ethnic, class, gender, sexuality etc. The myth of religious (or cultural) nationalism is that such identity is (a) universal (b) homogenous and (c) primary.
A Jewish (or Muslim) guy from london, for example carries numerous identities, he is British, a londoner and a Jew (or Muslim) and there is no contradiction between those identities. They are complimentary and all add up to the complexity of who he or she is. However religious nationalism claims that these identities are in contradiction. In particular it claims that a person's religious/cultural identity trumps all other identities. That a Jewish guy from london has more in common with a Jew from Ethiopia or Russia than he does with his non Jewish neighbour simply because they are both Jews. Or that a Muslim guy from Birmingham has more in common with someone in Indonesia or Iran than he does with his neighbour simply because they are both Muslims. This is the myth of nationalism. In the case of the Jewish guy from London it is the myth of Zionism. To the Muslim guy from Brum it is the myth of the Ummah.
But do they? Do they really? Does some guy from London really have more in common with some guy from Addis or Jakarta than with the bloke next door simply because they are both Jews or Muslims? I would say not. They may or may not have religious belief and identity in common. Often however, their cultural interpretation of their religious identity may not even be the same and besides, even if it were identical, there are far more other factors of identity at work besides religion.
Furthermore religious nationalism also says something more profound than this. It claims that the Jewish guy and the gentile can never live together. This, they claim is the lesson of the holocaust. (or of communalism in the case of Islam) The Jews or Muslims need their own state because their religious and cultural identity is incompatible with all other identity. That their religious and cultural identity is in fact their genuine national identity and what they may consider to be their national identity (as Brits or Americans or whatever) is in fact false. So, in this ideological construction. A British Jew is first and foremost a Jew and his British identity is at best of secondary importance and at worst an illusion. Likewise the myth of the Ummah says the same thing. When Pakistan was born this is exactly the argument that was used to justify a separate state for Muslims of the Indian subcontinent. The idea that an Indian Muslim could not be both an Indian and a Muslim but that his religious identity itself erased his Indian national identity and Islam itself was in itself a Muslims true national identity. This is religious nationalism
The problem is however, that religious and cultural identity is NOT national identity and is NOT incompatable with other forms of identity . It is perfectly possible for Jewish or Muslim Brits to live as equal citizens in the country of their birth as both Brits (national identity) and as Jews or Muslims (religious or cultural identity) it is patently absurd to claim that they have more in common with the Ethiopian guy or the Indonesian guy than they do with their fellow Brits solely on the basis of religion or culture. They may well feel they have much in common with their fellow Jews or Muslims across the globe but they do not share national identity.
So in answer to your question. No, it is not simply about faith. It is about cultural and religious identity defined in terms of religious belonging and as such it has little to do with practice and far more to do with identity. However such identity is not national identity, it is cultural and religious identity and is not incompatible with national identity.
There are Jews and Muslims in most countries on Earth and they can be both Jewish and British/American/French or whatever. Just as one can be both a Muslim and British/American/Iranian/Indonesian or whatever. The real issue is that all citizens enjoy equal rights regardless of their particular cultural or religious identity and the best way to ensure such rights is secular democratic governance. Rather than run off to Israel, Jews in their various countries should stand and fight for that.
By you!
Jewish is also a race, it's even on the boxes in the forms at the Civic Centre! Jews and Judaism are two different things
There are enough problems with the way that Israel is set up without talking bollocks. I bet you get Arab and Muslim mixed up as well
dylans
overlord of all acorns
There is no such thing as race.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Tell that to the human race.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Big nose genes.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Human species. Homo sapien, not human race
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I was taking the piss, you muppet
You were meant to come back with something like "they won't believe you!" demonstrating your sense of humour and disarming wit.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
If you believe everything Carl Linnaeus says.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
I don't have a sense of humour or a disarming wit. Surely you have noticed that by now?I was taking the piss, you muppet
You were meant to come back with something like "they won't believe you!" demonstrating your sense of humour and disarming wit.
smmudge
i know the smudge is true
Come again? They've both got human rights don't they?
Explain the boxes in the Civic Centre then!
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
I have that album
I came in here for an argument.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Which sort?
No you didn't...
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
The constant gainsaying of what the other person says.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
He did. But he didn't know which type.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Shut your festering gob you tit. Sorry, this is abuse.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
No it isn't.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
That was never 5 minutes.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
You didn't ask for five minutes.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
why are you still arguing then? All of urban is that sketch.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
why are you still arguing then? All of urban is that sketch.
Of course it is
Anyway. Never be rude to an Arab.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
"Human rights" are legal rights, not moral rights. Both are social constructs, whereas for something to be inherent, it'd have to natural.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Unless you're dark-skinned. Then, somehow, all sorts of bureaucratic, historical and anthropological objections get raised.
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